Episode 5

The Weight of the Will (Genesis 3) | PD5

April 15, 2026 · 02:05:16

I'm okay.

Oh,

so good.

This is why Michael

gets the big bucks.

Because he can actually sing.

I don't know about that.

I'll try.

Ready?

You're like, what's that

guy?

He's tone deaf.

Yeah, exactly.

I'm like,

I'm not horrible,

but you wouldn't want to listen.

You just gotta train a little bit

more.

Anyways, welcome to

the Prohemed Decay

podcast.

We are your

hosts,

Michael, Daniel,

and Steven.

And this is

beautiful day.

And also a perfume decay.

Well, I said

this is the perfume decay podcast.

Oh, well, I missed that part.

Yeah, it's okay.

You weren't listening to me.

Whatever, dude.

It is 3

o 'clock.

I mean, 2 .55...

PM.

That is why

it looks light

outside the window

and not just dark.

Okay.

They didn't want to be flashed.

That looks like

a bright flashlight.

That was.

Thank you.

Otherwise known as the sun.

That's true.

You know what?

You're right.

Thank you for joining

us on this

very interesting,

different energy than

we normally have.

Is it?

Yeah.

Well, because we've been doing

late nights or just

weird hours.

Well, last episode we didn't.

Did we?

Yeah, we did.

Well, it started out kind

of okay.

Yeah.

We started out...

Well, we started out late.

We went for four hours last

time.

That was the first episode.

But here on Perfume

Decay,

we venture into the

spiritual through the Bible,

perfuming our

experience with the sweet aroma

of God's Word,

and then partake of all

else known to us in the

decay of this world in the

physical, mental,

and emotional.

Amen, Amen.

You got it.

And today's

topics I'm very

excited for.

They're going to be deep.

This might be another four -hour

episode.

Well, actually, we got

a time clock, actually.

We have a time clock, which

has proven to be

successful in the past.

Well, it's taken

us an hour to get to this point

where we're actually recording.

Yeah.

I mean, part of that was you eating.

Us talking.

Setting up.

Even though we've got this

wonderful setup now,

it still takes us a long time.

I think we just

got to lock in when we show up.

We just got to go straight to the...

Yeah.

But, I mean,

setup was actually really quick this time.

Yeah.

Like the actual setup, so...

Yeah.

The longest part

was...

Talking.

I mean, the transcript.

That was it.

That's true.

Yeah.

But,

yeah.

I mean, we're getting a little more

refined,

little by little.

We have these new

camera

stands for Jimmy

and Stephanie,

which is

super awesome.

Eventually, we're going to have

arms

for the mics.

We're reinventing ourselves.

But I think we be could should...

This great.

You're not going to hear this anymore.

Yeah.

Which is so annoying.

So...

And then...

So, I noticed I was

listening to...

Watching the podcast last time.

Yeah.

And I noticed that when you were talking,

and then when I was talking,

because it was probably mimicking you.

That annoying.

You would make a point,

and every single time you

made a point in

your long monologue, you would

just...

Really?

Not that hard.

I'm being obvious, but you'd be like,

it's a really good

point.

Yeah.

And you

could tear it in the mic.

That's so funny.

I don't even

realize I'm doing

that.

Yeah.

That's great.

Well, you listened to the last one, right?

Yeah, I listened to it.

You didn't notice that?

No.

Wow.

Yeah.

Weird.

Yeah.

But we should

probably...

Roll into it.

Yeah.

So, we want to get our

boy Hugh on.

I think he hasn't heard

from you in a while.

I think you should.

For me?

Yeah.

Okay, I'll give him a call.

Yeah,

See you.

I mean, I did give

Stephen his

phone number.

Yeah.

Finally.

Yeah.

Okay, I'll give him a call.

Here he is.

You guys hear that?

Yeah.

Hopefully he picks up.

He's pretty reliable.

Humanity here.

And last episode was a spiritual

speed run where Michael and

Daniel tried to do a quick

start...

immediately forgot how time works,

and turned a simple intro into a

roast marathon about

emotions, girlfriends,

and why nobody has Chuck's

number when it matters.

We ricocheted from

never listen to your

heart, into forgiveness.

Social contract theory getting

suplexed by grace,

and that wildflower analogy

where manipulation is

basically plucking someone's

beauty for your own bouquet

and calling it helping.

Then we dove into

Eden, two trees,

one forbidden snack, and

Adam and Eve inventing shame

so fast you'd think

fig leaves were a

subscription service.

Today, Michael and

Daniel finally answer

last episode's cliffhanger.

If it's wrong for a random

person to forgive on someone

else's behalf, then who

actually has the authority

to forgive it all?

And what does that imply about

morality,

justice, and whether God

exists?

Keep your brain switched on

and your loopholes switched

off.

Because they're about to unpack

it without hiding behind word

games.

Michael and Daniel, take it away.

He really wants us to talk

about forgiveness.

He really wants to hammer that point.

I feel like - By you.

Yeah, that was the same

exact thing he said last

time.

I think for the last three times.

Yeah.

We gotta have a sit down with you.

Yeah, we have to -

Rough him up a little.

Take him out back.

Have a heart to heart.

Yeah.

In the roughest way possible.

Like open heart.

And maybe he can

exercise that forgiveness that he's so

focused on.

Right.

Which - Maybe I can.

Maybe you can.

Maybe.

Maybe we need to exercise that

forgiveness.

Maybe he's running tall or something.

Oh.

Is he trying to annoy

us to the point of needing to forgive

him?

Maybe.

Sounds a little manipulative.

It does, yeah.

Almost sounds like he's

picking

our flowers

for his own bouquet.

Yeah.

But I do

like the suplex

- what was it?

Suplexing

social contract

theory with Grace.

That's so funny.

And then plucking

someone's beauty for

your own bouquet.

Yeah.

That was fire.

Yeah, that was tight.

Reminder,

we don't hear these

before the

podcast at all.

We just -

We go for it.

Maybe we should.

No.

No, it's great.

Well, at least so we can get rid of the

forgettist thing.

Yeah, I think what it's doing

is just like

picking up on the keyword in

the transcript that says cliffhanger.

And just like, oh, that's that's what it

is.

Yeah, that's right.

So we'll have to fix that

prompting a little bit.

That's okay.

But you know, GPT's lazy.

What is -

Today's topic?

What is our open

about?

I think it's interesting that

we're deciding this right now.

How about the eggnog?

The eggnog.

The eggnog is bomb.

Yeah.

You want to tell us what's in it?

Alcohol.

You told me this was non

-alcoholic.

If it was non

-alcoholic, I don't think Stephen would be

drinking it.

I got to drive this.

I got to drive afterwards.

You had one

- what was the

voodoo - Hey,

what were you - The thing voodoo that you
had.

Do we see a voodoo can?

Do you have a - Anywhere?

Yeah, because he threw it at the

door.

There has to be a trash can

over there.

I crushed it and I threw it

into the corner.

He's like, what are you doing?

I'm like, well, it was a good

shot.

There should have been a trash can over

there.

I threw, thus there

is trash.

Well, to be fair, there usually

is something sort of like

a trash can over there.

And no.

The blue thing?

There has not been a trash can.

That's not a trash can?

No.

You tell me I've been throwing

stuff into that blue

thing.

Dang it, it's a trash can.

And it's not a trash can.

It feels like a trash can.

Am I just insulting you now?

I don't even know what that bucket

- Oh, that used

to be for the turtle.

Oh, yeah, that makes sense.

It looks like trash.

But that's funny.

I'm glad I'm not insulting something

very personal too.

You're not.

That was good.

But I feel like I should be

insulting.

Just for the sake of being

insulted.

That turtle should definitely be

insulted.

Insulted.

The tortle insulted.

Anyways,

Merry Christmas to everybody.

That was this week.

Cheers.

That was.

Cheers.

Oh, here we go.

Pass the nod around.

Cheers.

Yeah, we - I was -

oh, okay, here we go.

How was Christmas?

Yeah, that was Christmas.

What is - what is

- what was our experience?

What was our -

did we do anything?

I did something.

Yeah?

I woke up.

That's true.

You waxed your car for three days
straight.

I did wax my car for three days

straight.

I actually buffed the paint off

in the corner of

the trunk - Nice.

Nice.

On accident.

So it's So it's like - down to the primer.

Did you cry?

No, I've got

this just like acceptance

when it comes to my car because

it's so nice.

I knew that nice

things don't stay nice all the time.

People make mistakes.

They scratch cars.

They run into cars.

They destroy

nice things.

And so I just like accepted that fact

when I bought it.

Nice.

That it's probably not going to stay

nice.

So I was a little bit

disappointed.

And

now

I'm curious of how

would be fixable.

There's,

I've looked up a few methods

and my best

options are

a DIY

spray kind

of thing.

But it's probably not going to be perfect

match, especially because

it's right on the edge of

the trunk and there's no

hard lines to

sort of hide

the

difference

in the paint color, which is

inevitable.

So I'll probably

just take it to a professional

place

to touch up

everywhere because there's

quite a few scratches.

So there you go.

So you've had experience

with the disappointment then?

Yeah.

I mean, it's

not

worth getting

heated.

Yeah, I worked up about something

like that.

Or really anything.

The only

thing that I should

really get heated about is

someone's messing with

another person

something

happens to another

person,

that's

where it's actually like,

okay, yeah, you can definitely

have

some feelings about that.

But I mean, not to say having

feelings about inanimate

objects is wrong.

I just say, I think

I'm very stoic

and know it.

But Christmas,

I was going over to pick up Steven

and he texted

me about one of his gifts.

You want to tell him about it?

Or was there more?

No, not much.

So my parents

got

TV wall mount and

I use this TV

my monitor

for my gaming desktop.

Nice.

Except the

frame right?

nice The things.

No,

no, no.

That's not really the consensus is that

the frame rate is never enough for a

TV.

Oh, yeah.

Well, this is

true, but

it can't

really tell.

isn't

that true?

Can you tell?

Yeah, you can.

Around 30 frames,

it starts to really

dip off and you can

even I can

tell.

Every once in a while, if you're shifting

around and

you're like third person in a

camera,

it'll be kind of a

ghosting effect.

Oh,

like it's lagging behind.

Yeah.

Okay, yeah.

the

hard thing

about this gift

is that

have the TV because of my

vision right up

next to me.

And so I only have room in front

of the TV for my keyboard,

mouse and other

stuff, phone charger,

cup holder.

And so my desktop, my

tower is right behind

my TV.

And

the TV

now

comes

out.

Yeah.

Like it comes out towards you.

And this desktop computer

is a big boy.

Yeah.

It's thick.

It's the

Lenovo

Evo.

Oh, it's pretty.

Yeah.

It's like a see -through case

with like,

what's the thing

on the bottom and the fans

and everything?

Don't you have like a special like

graphics card or

something?

No, not necessarily a special

graphics card.

It's the

Radeon

XTX.

For all you computer nerds out there,

I have no idea what these things are.

All I know is it's powerful.

It's a

1440p

graphics

card, basically.

Yeah.

Native, 1440p.

Thanks.

Love that.

What does that mean when you're playing
video

games?

So,

yeah.

Well, there's

720, which

most people can

handle, but

it's not pretty

at all.

There's still some grain to

it,

but it's it's manageable

through the average

person.

1080p is where

it's kind of a sweet

spot for

high range games like Call of Duty.

Let's take, for instance,

FPS driven

games which need

fast reflexes.

Fast timing is more frame rate

than quality.

1440p is kind

of the mix between

frame rate and

quality,

which I kind of wanted

because

just because

I'm like

visually impaired,

I can still see color really well.

Like I love

watching colors

on the screen.

having vivid colors,

I turn my

displays

always on vivid

just

to enhance

kind of like

picture qualities,

video, video qualities.

So then like

4k is like

not

is way more quality

than frame rate.

And

that's

where you get like the 4k

TVs and everyone's like

when the OLED

displays and

all this fancy

stuff.

So goes all the way

up to like 6k right?

There's a higher Yeah,

I think

there's gonna be like,

get

the last

tech convention, there's

like a Mar that was like

15k.

Yeah, there's no reason they

can't go higher.

But the

quality

that you notice,

depending on the person, like

it's like

diminishing

returns.

Here's anyways, here's Christmas

gift.

Yeah, here's what I'm realizing,

just based off of

this, what we got the

specs guy.

We got the

guy that knows how to

use tech.

And then we caught the guy that doesn't

know how to use tech at all.

Doesn't But know.

most

definitely for me.

Probably for him.

I don't know.

How much do you play?

Um,

well, so I do farming

simulator and I can

basically have

workers work on

the fields.

And then I can do like,

Google Search again, I used to

do homework.

just

say alongside it, but

like if it

was a super big field, and

I was like doing a whatever

map, like unrealistic,

everything, I could have the

worker do it for like,

several hours,

this one field and yeah,

but that's not really just do homework

the rest of the time.

Just aren't really gaming gaming as far

involved.

No,

um, more idling.

Yeah.

Like that's just a slow paced

games.

I've gotten more

into

recently bought Halo.

Which one?

The Master Chief series.

Okay.

So all of them.

Which

I'm

going through them in timeline order.

So I

mean, you're not getting

with the first

two

at least.

I think it is first two or

three.

At least I read on

comments.

You're not getting the best graphics

of today's standards.

Yeah.

He might not beer

for everybody who says

yeah.

So,

but needless to say,

your,

your

wall mounts doesn't

do any favors.

Yeah.

Also, I want to put your little

float your word.

Put the desktop.

Yeah, the dilemma is

like 20

inches by

like 12 inches

wide.

Sheesh.

Yeah.

Um,

but thinking

either like doing a shelf

on top of,

um,

the

above

the mark, the TV,

it's basically because

it's a fishbowl

tower,

basically.

Yeah.

Case.

Um, and I have some RGB

fans to it.

Um, RGB RAM,

not a whole lot of like

out

of,

um,

I want to say

seven

fans, only like

three or,

um,

RGB.

So I don't have very much

RGB.

I didn't really want a whole

lot of RGB.

I want more black,

a black style, but

some color to it.

Yeah.

So, um, and then

the other dilemma I have

is, um,

getting a new desk.

Nice.

So, yeah,

more research.

Um,

how about you, Michael?

How was your Christmas?

No, somebody that's giving them

my desk.

Uh, so my Christmas was

spent with my

roommates.

And now your family?

No, my family was

in Flagstaff.

Oh.

Uh,

which they do every year.

Why didn't you go?

Uh, because I worked

Monday and Tuesday,

and I don't trust my car to

go up

to Flagstaff right now.

Fair.

Um, so I spent,

so actually, first

off, on Tuesday, I

spent,

um, the beginning of my day

hitting a coyote,

and then following three

hours being,

uh, flabbergasted,

uh, in shock

from one

probably killing

animal.

A tasty coyote thing you could

have.

Right.

Barbecue.

Being in shock

and just,

that was awful.

And then, uh, yeah, you

texted me and

Danny, and we're just like, sort

of, I

was

like, what

the heck?

I'm like, I felt so bad for

that coyote.

Yeah.

And I thought I was dragging it along.

No, No, like in

the front of my car.

cuz I heard a dragon sound I'm like, oh my

gosh that could be the coyote

So I was hard.

It was just the my

bumper.

My numbers all imagine

though.

Yeah I

think

I think that would have been too

traumatizing for me.

I would have just been like

hey, I'm I

can't

Can't it's not happening

But yeah,

so that was interesting.

Yeah, there's a huge gash

on the side of my

bumper now Oh,

yeah, we got a picture.

Oh, yeah, I'll pull it.

Oh, yeah but

Yeah, then I my

dad bought

Lego

Mustang huge one

with like

motor and all that

different stuff

For me and my roommate to

build he bought

like the

Exploding kittens

Yeah,

it's

awful an exploding

kittens board

game Which cameras and

then he also got us

Robo tech

the complete

blu -ray

Collection

for us

Bond over

do together.

We spent a few

hours.

We just watched the

first disc, but

And there you go.

That's didn't even finish the

Yeah, poor thing.

Yeah

but um, yeah

That was that was my

Christmas and

then my mind

our

family friend

came over as

well and hung out with

us Yeah, it

sounds fun

Then yesterday

I did

Absolutely nothing I

just watched

movies

try to figure out what

to do.

Yeah

Made some videos for

Years,

no.

Yeah for the New Year's I

don't know.

Yeah

Trying to get a crowd.

Yeah, I see trying

to play my cards right now you

can any traction from

that.

Nope

Just the same people

it's my friend

Omar and Jordan

that are most

consistent But that's awful.

I think I think I

got the most reaction from

the initial message saying hey

I'm gonna do this and I think

everything else is just

people don't care to

react.

They've already saw it.

Yeah.

Yeah

How much reaction do you get

from the initial one

the initial post

like seven

people?

Ten I think

if you

count The

extra people that reacted

on Instagram because it's Facebook

and Instagram that I'm posting on

I see.

Yeah, so

yeah Speaking of which we

got a

Whopping zero views

on on YouTube

Yeah, we gotta

Get into it if you could help

me and set that

set up after this

sure.

Yeah.

I mean my Christmas was great

Thanks for asking

You already answer.

Well, I asked you first.

No, well we

We asked the question and Stephen

said that I was doing

my car and so I

know

Yeah, oh, that's right.

I said that you

Okay, oh, yeah,

how's how's your

It was good

actually

so this year my brother

took a

pay cut voluntarily up at

work to

Don't know how deep I should get

into it but to save a

business from going under

well

he's a board

member

and

he started it with a

friend and

friends family member

and so

They all took a pay cut

to hopefully

save this save this business

and

That's awesome.

Yeah, so

it's it's a hit for him

financially but

he's dutiful

and like a good steward

of his money, so he's

He's okay.

It's just he doesn't

if he doesn't have to

buy

Gifts for people that would

be ideal

So he requested that for

Christmas and we all agreed

and so it was

really nice because we all got

together We had breakfast

together.

We had lunch together and then

Said our goodbyes

before dinner

was

it was mostly

nice because

We didn't have that pressure

of like getting gifts

for each other and

that possible

Disappointment disappointment.

Yeah.

Yeah or like

the not being able to meet

expectations.

Yeah, right.

I think I think that

expectation is

just

because of

Social thing.

I don't I mean,

I think it's marketing.

I yeah, it's marketing

I just

I I

personally have an issue with

gift giving holidays and

the expectation

of them

I don't think there should be an
expectation.

I said, I should give

gifts when you want to yeah, it's

a gift It's throughout the entire

year.

It's not merited.

It's not like oh

You deserve this because of

such and such day.

It's more also I decided to

give this also the idea of like

you're thinking about what gifts

you should give during the holiday on
holiday

season and

or you just

rather Christmas.

And whenever you think of a gift

that you can give to someone, you don't
give it to

them right away.

You wait for like a month or

two.

Yeah.

Right?

Which I think is...

And it's kind of like, it

kind of sucks some of the fun

out.

Yeah.

Maybe it adds a little bit because

of the anticipation.

But I feel like when

I want to give a gift to someone, I

want to give it to them

as soon as I can.

And sometimes gifts are timely.

Yeah.

So, yeah, I don't

really like the Christmas

concepts as

far as gift giving

in the American

culture.

I think the same thing about birthdays,

honestly, because it's like,

I mean, you

absolutely should

celebrate

people

and

them being in your life and them being

important to you.

And

celebrating

that specific day, I think, has

value, but it doesn't have a

gift giving value to me.

It has a,

you are a gift

and we get

to receive you.

We get to remember that we got

you today.

You know what's funny?

My dad, on his

birthday, he started

giving other people gifts.

I've seriously,

honestly thought about doing it.

Because

the

people that show up to

that day, to your birthday,

your celebration of yourself.

are Those some of the best people

in your life.

Yeah.

And that's the gift,

is you getting to spend time with those

people, not them getting to spend

time with you.

Yeah, honestly,

that's powerful.

It really is.

But I think that's,

just the culture puts

that pressure on us.

And it's like, oh,

and then some people,

they really

do.

They're like, oh, you hate me.

Like, you don't care about me.

Like, you blah, blah, blah,

blah.

And it's like,

that is,

that doesn't make

sense.

Not true at all.

Yeah.

And it's like me giving

you a

gift, sometime in

the year when I actually,

when I thought of you,

saw the gift, got

you the gift immediately,

and then gave it to you.

It's like, somehow that's

valueless.

Compared to

this.

When all the companies

say I should give you a gift,

and I don't, like

that's,

so I'm a bad guy because the

companies told you

that I should have given you a

gift.

The idea behind the gift is that you want

to give.

Yeah.

Well, like I said, it's unmerited.

You didn't do anything for this

gift.

You just exist, I care about

you, and I'm giving you a gift.

That's the key though, is the

care.

Yeah.

If you don't care, why would

you give someone a gift?

And then to be fair, there can

obviously be

powerful

and gentle loving intent

in doing it on

specific days.

But it's just like,

it's not something

to hold over

people's heads and

set an expectation,

like you have to do this where you don't
love me.

And because people have

that love language

of...

Gift giving.

Or receiving gifts.

And they

attribute it to a certain

day, but it's like, how about you

just,

is it okay if it's just

whenever?

Yeah.

It should be.

You're still getting a gift.

It probably would be if you

communicated.

Yeah,

yeah.

Communication, I like that.

Buh -boom.

Does that transition into our

segments?

Sure doesn't.

But that does.

Steven, you wanna lead

us into...

Do we wanna pray first?

Oh, hey.

Ooh, I forgot

about that.

Who wants to pray?

I'll take it.

You wanna pray?

Yeah, that's it.

I feel like I should take my headphones
off.

I know, it feels weird.

Take that hat off, dude.

my Take hat off.

It's like, frickin' sacrilege.

So everybody, you're balding.

Steven's like, I'll take his hat

off.

You want me to?

He's a heathen.

No, it's up to you, dude.

I had long hair for like a whole season,

so.

I still have hair.

No, I know, but

they would give me trouble with

that long hair.

It's getting long.

That's why I wear hats too.

So I don't have to comb.

Yeah, honestly.

All right, dear God, thank you for

today.

Thank you for this podcast.

Please help us to

discuss things that are

important, that are

urgent

in our

lives, and the lives

of people that are going to listen

or watch this.

Please help us to speak the

truth,

to press for

the truth, and to not

settle for anything less

than that.

But also not to

confuse anybody,

including ourselves.

Please guide us during this conversation,

and yeah,

amen.

Amen, amen.

I always want to do like a

run -on sentence kind

of prayer.

Yeah.

And then at a certain point, I'm like,

and yeah.

Or then you start doing ums like

me.

Yeah, right.

Anyways,

Stephen, what's the,

do you remember the

topic at hand?

choice.

Oh,

choice,

choice.

So,

uh,

who's going to choose to go first?

open So ended.

Choice and what about choice?

idea Whose was this?

That was your choice.

Well, I'll give the context on it,

considering I'm the one that wrote that
down.

Um,

so we were talking, last

episode we were obviously talking

about the two

trees,

and we were talking about

what

the

tree of

the knowledge of good and evil

represents,

and

just

what happens,

or what the

possibility could be

of when they

ate of the tree,

or the consequences of it.

And it came

to,

at some point we ended up

bringing

how

choice or

free will or

whatever you want to

call it, kind of plays a

role in this and

why it's important.

We didn't touch on it because it

is a

huge topic,

but

it does bring

us to

this episode where we

will

do our

best.

Yes, this choice episode

where

we will do our best

to tackle

it.

Um,

but

yeah,

I don't know if one

of you wants

to.

I feel like you started

new crackers.

You want me to crack it open?

Yeah, crack it open.

So I actually did,

I went on chat GPT

and I,

so I've been

writing a book.

I know you guys haven't heard about

it before.

It's called Infinite

Nature, All Creation.

Um,

but

it is a topic that

I'm going to have to tackle myself

in my

book.

And

the argument

from

30 ,000 foot

view is

really,

does man

choose God,

excuse me, choose salvation?

This is the

bigger topic,

I guess.

Does man choose salvation

or does God

choose who saved?

That's, that's the bigger

question.

That's the big issue on the

table.

Um,

the lesser question

I would say

is,

do we get to choose anything?

Um, do we have

that kind of

agency

where we have

control,

um,

and can

decide

things on our

own or are things

widely just

determined for

because

any number of things.

So I'll get into later.

Um,

I think what's your take?

Personally,

uh,

the,

the context for my book

has to do

really with the

idea that I was

tackling

determinism

reformed

theology tied to

predestination,

um, or

Calvinism, if you will,

and

free

will and

how those two things

clash.

And I did my

research.

I looked at the scripture that they both

referenced.

I looked at scripture that they can both
kind

of look at and

refute.

And I basically

came to the conclusion

that it's a stupid

argument

and

I don't care.

It doesn't matter.

I call it the logistics

of salvation,

which

we are

not,

are not the

spiritual,

um,

shippers, if you will,

of this logistical

issue.

We are the recipients

of it.

Um,

and so

I basically

talked it up to

God saved.

God made the decision

to save

and it is through

Christ and is by hearing

the word of God that we are saved

and is

through Christ's blood on the cross that

we can be saved.

Um,

so,

you know, at the end

of the day, it doesn't matter if

God chose or if we

chose because

ultimately God calls us to

make a decision to,

choose

Him based off the knowledge

of the gospel, because we have to hear it

and then we have to accept it.

And then it's

God who saves us

though.

Right.

Um,

and that's, that's, I mean, that's,

my perspective on,

on salvation.

Why?

Yeah.

What, what did you always

think that way?

And then if not, what

changed your mind.

And if you did,

what convinces you?

Yeah.

I mean,

would say that I

have always thought

that way,

because

just

my own

perception

life

has

been very,

I'll

say, informed

that I've

just

seen

that with a

lot of people and with myself

and with a lot of situations,

we don't choose the

situation.

We don't choose the information

around the situation.

We don't choose

really

anything.

We just choose to

try to head in

a direction.

And then

just,

that's it.

Whatever happens is

not a result of

us making that decision,

but

a result

of a lot of decisions

being made at the same time

and a lot of

different

factors coming

into play and hitting

all of it at once.

And that's

predestination to

some, because

it sounds like I'm saying that

we don't have

choice.

We don't have a will, we don't

have whatever.

All you're saying though is that

we don't choose the

outcome.

Yeah, we don't choose the outcome.

We choose to be

a part of...

We choose the input,

we don't choose the output.

Yeah.

We can't.

We're not the processor.

Yeah.

Well, but I wouldn't

even go so far as to

say we

don't...

There is a sense of

choosing

the input,

but what is the input

based off of?

It's partly based off

of what we

focus

on, which I think

that's more of

the

best

claim that I've

heard or

thought of

for free will.

choose

what to focus on, which is a

mental thing,

and it can be physical if we

can act upon that.

But

even

that is based off of

nature and nurture.

Whatever...

I mean,

we don't choose where

to be born, who to be born to,

born.

how we're Could also do a little

bit genetic, we don't know.

Well,

that's nature,

nature and nurture.

Tush.

Yeah.

So, again, but

we don't choose who we're born

to, what the situation

is, we don't choose where we

live, what school we go

to, we don't

choose...

We really don't make

any of those decisions,

but we have to...

We are subject to them,

and

that

creates

whatever our perception

of life is,

what we choose to focus

on.

I had Chad G

.B .T.

do an assessment of me as a

person based off of my book so

far,

and it basically

laid out, which

I really do believe to be

true,

that based

off of certain circumstances,

my view of life

X, Y,

and Z.

respond

in a certain way where I have to be

a little more detailed, or why

I think I have to be a little

more detailed.

I think I have to

give

a preface to everything that I'm gonna

say and do, and

whatever, so that people

understand, not for fear

failing

doing

whatever it is I'm

setting out to do, but

fear of

being

misinterpreted.

Because I want to

make sure that the

true point

comes across,

and that's part of why I'm

finally writing this book, is

because I

feel like I can actually get that

point across.

But I truly

believe

that...

I've truly thought

that my entire life, that I

product

the

situation that I've been

in, of the circumstances

that I've been in,

and I've just had to be a good

steward of that.

And that's where the

focus comes

in,

where

can choose...

I just cut someone off

yesterday,

whose focus

has to

much with the negativity in the

world, the evil,

pointing to a certain people

group and saying that it is

their fault that X,

Y, and Z is happening in the

world,

why we're oppressed by whatever.

And

you focus on things

politically, if you focus on

current events, if you

focus on all

these different

things, is all all the

media, whatever.

If you...

go on the internet a lot, if you talk to

people that have

a certain view,

and you're just looking at the

evil in the world, yeah,

that's your perspective.

And I can't say

exactly why

they have this

perspective.

It could be any number of different things
that

led up to this.

But they're

also claiming to be a person of

faith.

And when I call them

to focus on

Christ,

it's like a fight.

They don't want to focus on

Christ.

They want to focus on evil that's being

done and how it needs to be

purged and

blah, blah, blah, blah.

And I'm like, but Christ,

how is the

love of Christ

being shown through you?

I don't care about

what's going on over there.

How is the love of Christ

being shown through you?

Because the only thing that you need to
worry about

is you.

That's it.

Because you

can't change anything that anybody

else thinks, feels, does,

whatever.

And that's why I cut them off.

Because I'm like, I've talked to

you for years.

And you are still

ignoring everything that

I've ever said,

as I'm trying to point you to

Christ, to what Christ has

actually said.

And I

just see danger

the things that they're

desiring and thinking

and the

actions that they're taking.

Anyways, that's all to say.

Like I

can

focus on

the negativity in the world and

be subject

to that.

Or I can focus on

Christ.

I can focus on the good

that's in the world

and have peace and

joy and hope

and

take place

and share in that.

And that's why I think

points to

the gifts

that God has as

us getting to

share in

those experiences that are available

to us when we are in Christ.

And we get to share in them, but

we have to choose.

And so we have to focus

on it.

We have to accept it.

We have to look at it and say,

this is what God has promised

me.

So I get to take part in this.

I get to take part in

this.

And that's what I see

mostly

choice.

We are a product

of our

circumstances.

And

lot of people aren't

as self

-aware as I am, I would say,

where

everything

about me

is metacognition.

I'm thinking about thinking,

if you don't know what metacognition

is.

really question that

point too.

you're

not self -aware,

think to some degree

that makes it

feel as though

everything's

just kind of chaos.

Whereas I see

everything, I see a structure

to everything that ever happens.

I don't see chaos,

I see evil

manipulating

things and confusing

and searching and

destroying

the

lost.

But I

don't see

true chaos

as though

there is not the hand of

God over it.

You do know that

the human mind

is built to

place

meaning where there

isn't any.

Yeah.

Well, yeah.

Well,

it's...

So you're

saying that you have

metacognition,

thinking about thinking,

and

that you see a

causation

for every

single action or every single

decision that you make,

which is

correct.

That's what I'm hearing you

say, is there?

Yeah.

Okay.

That could be

your brain

coming up with

meaning and

coming up with links and

ties that don't even

exist.

Could it not?

Based off of a biblical

worldview, I wouldn't say

so.

Well, in a biblical worldview,

you're not God.

No, I'm not.

I'm No, not.

I'm not God.

I'm not saying that

can see everything, but I

can see based off of

God's word that there

is a reason.

There's certain consequences for

certain actions.

Yeah.

And I mean, it's a

generalization most

of the time.

a It's major generalization because you

see the evil side

in Job, and then you

see

another

side of the same coin

Proverbs

where David is saying,

why are you blessing all of these

evil people?

Why are they

thriving?

Yeah.

So it's not always

causal

in nature.

Like things, Good

things good things happen.

to evil people and evil

things happen to good people.

And there's no way that we could

ever tie

the position

together.

In terms of the

full,

like,

grand scheme of things.

But also the

partial

scale too.

Like we don't even know ourselves

very well.

Yeah.

Like you might be

good at

metacognition, but are

you good at like

being aware of your

body?

Are you good at being

aware

of,

I don't know, the

environment that you're in?

Right.

Reading the environment that way?

So that's like reading

people.

I mean more like are you good

at like

organizing

your environment?

Are you good at

a stressful situation,

controlling

what

you take in and what

you

ignore?

Sort of like, you know, when you're doing

math in third grade and they give you

word problems just to

teach you that skill.

Yeah.

Right?

What to ignore, what to pay attention

to.

In real life that's super

important because if

you get into an

accident on the

road

and

there's several

injuries and

some are more serious than

others, you got to have that

skill.

Yeah.

To be able to

comprehend what to

do.

Right?

you could be good at

thinking

and

you could be good at thinking about

thinking.

But are you good at

all of it

and

could it be possible that there's

something else that we're not even
addressing

that

an unknown unknown?

I mean,

I don't...

This is

something that I

bring up to people

purely

because I

want them to

understand the

possibility

of where my ego stems

from.

Not so much

that I can

explain

it fully

because

either

way I

succumb to

some boundaries which

are

that

I don't know anything

unless I'm told

the source.

And I

don't

act upon

what I

think that I know because

I call it assumption.

So it doesn't matter.

So you'd never use an assumption.

I've absolutely used it,

an assumption.

But it's more that

that is what I am

trying to achieve.

Oh, that's the ideal.

That's what I'm trying.

That's how I'm trying to.

No, that's fair because we're all shooting

for an ideal and we never are

perfect.

So...

Yeah.

Well, I haven't laid it out

in my book.

It's not useful

to just act upon

information.

You do have to learn how

to use it.

And so even if I

have had whatever we're

going to call this

ability,

my whole life

I've used it horribly

in the past.

I mean, I used it for manipulation.

You're right.

And because I could pick

up on whatever

tiny little detail and

exploit the ever -loving hack out

of it.

Like we do here.

Well, yeah.

But to

affect

someone's life

directly.

The not too good.

But

ultimately,

it doesn't necessarily

matter.

Where

that comes

back to the conversation of

choice,

I've just recognized

that

I made

those decisions

based off of...

It's a

defense

mechanism.

I made that decision based off

failures that I

saw around me and

my need to be in

control.

And so

whether or

not it is what

I think it

is,

what other people

may have called it or

whatever, it doesn't matter

because

what

it came from

was me trying to be in

control.

And so, yeah,

was I able to create...

Is this a result of

trauma?

Is this a result of me training

my brain?

Is this a result of

whatever?

I don't know.

Overthinking.

Touch on control.

And I got to hit the restroom real quick,

but I'll set this up and

I'll listen to

it afterwards.

Touch on control because

control is something that

we,

according to your argument, we do

not have.

So what were you actually

searching

for?

If you believed

one thing and you were acting

in another way by searching

for that control.

Does that make sense?

If I believed one

thing...

You believe that God is in

an ultimate control, And and

then...

nothing that we do

anything but

predestined.

That's kind of...

Why did you

choose

try to

gain control when you,

in your heart, believed

that that's not possible

because God has all control?

No, no.

I don't believe in the

entirety of predestination.

I don't say that.

Explain that nuance.

Okay.

So the idea of control,

ultimately we are stewards

the

things...we're

stewards of our situations,

of the resources that we have at our

disposal,

which

responsibility.

God gives us responsibility.

He says,

here's the rules,

here's

what

you can do,

and here's the consequences if you don't

do it.

the

issue

of choice

is,

in my mind,

not a product

of...I

am in control,

it's a product

of...I

focusing on X,

Y, and Z,

and thus am not

choosing the things that God

wants.

and that

creates action,

and that

action

is often based

off of a

poor reaction

circumstances, to

people,

to whatever

negative

thing.

I mean, it can be...we

can be reacting to a positive thing

and thus be doing something

good, but

ultimately do not have

control.

We do not create,

I guess,

is more what I would put

it as.

What I think most

people think of when they think

of free choice or free

will is that they get

to create

the

circumstances, they get to

create

the

opportunities

whatever, and I

don't think that's the case at

all.

I think God creates the...I

think God

lays

everything out,

and we are stewards of it, so

we get to focus

whatever

direction, and then

He guides our path.

Like it says in the Bible, it says

in the Bible that

man plans

his way, but God directs his

path.

That's not us

making the

decision.

That's us saying, I want

to head in this direction, and God's

saying, well, okay,

that's great,

but this

is where you're actually going to go.

This is what's actually going to

happen, because He sees all the

factors.

He sees everything that's happening,

and so, yeah, we get to focus

on one thing,

but

that is not the control of ourselves in a
sense,

but

that's

only based off of our limited

perception

of life.

Does that make sense?

It does.

It's a lot of information.

I'm trying to go back here.

Yeah.

Let

think.

a way,

I think I

understand

just

the fact that

the creator,

the God, the God of the world,

the God of the world, God

of the world, the

God

of the world,

God

of the world,

God of the world,

the God of

the the world,

God of the world,

the God

of the world, the

God

of the world,

the God God of the world, God of the
world, God of

the world, the God of the world, the God
God of the

world, God of the world, the God of the
world, God of

the world, the God of the world, the

God of the world, the

God

of God of the world, the God of the world,

God God of the world,

God

of the world, the God of the world, God of
the world,

the

God

of the world,

the God of the world,

God

of the world, the

God

of the world, the God him of

the or not choosing

him.

world, God of the world,

whether...

And I guess

whether

it's

your

whole life as a decision,

I guess

concave

into little

parts into one

whole or

one choice

determines

it.

But this is

whenever

you die and

guess

what I'm going

towards,

you are mainly

going towards

life.

I can

try and

correct that since

Daniel's back.

The way that I...

So let's...

Let's create a roadmap,

I guess.

I'll

make it...

This is extremely

reductionist,

which I'm really good

at.

So it's

the idea

that

God

created the materials.

Let's say God created this

can, right?

Okay.

And

literally,

I will focus

in on this can,

and then I will go and

I'll

grab it

and do whatever.

But everything that's

happening to this can is

not decided

by me.

I didn't create gravity.

I didn't create

physics.

I didn't create

the can.

I didn't

create

how

everything functions

here.

I didn't even create how my

hand functions.

All that's happening is

that I'm using my body

that God gave me,

focusing in on what

it is that I want to do,

and I'm

doing it.

Now,

I don't know

anything

that could happen

between me and going

and grabbing the can,

right?

For all I know, something

could shoot through that

little

peephole right there,

hit me in the chest, and

I never pick up the can.

Someone could barge through there, tackle

me.

You guys could,

I don't know, stop

me, or everything

could shut down.

The lights turn off.

The apocalypse happens.

I don't know.

Any number of things could

happen, and I don't choose

a single one.

All I get to do

is just go and

try and pick up this thing.

It's like the

idea of sitting in

a chair.

I didn't build the

chair.

Yeah, but then that goes

into there

is no choice.

There is only predestined.

No, not necessarily.

It doesn't matter,

is what I'm trying to say.

It doesn't matter if

it is

predestined

or whatever.

It's the fact that

I didn't create

any of this,

any of the circumstances.

The only thing that

I am doing is using the

mind that God gave me

to do a thing

that I think that I can

do.

Then God is making it, and then

God is allowing it

really to happen,

like us making this podcast.

Any number of things could happen

in your guys'

lives, my life,

whatever, to make this just

never happen.

That's

not in

our control

necessarily.

We can

push all those things

out.

Maybe they're important.

Maybe it's family.

Maybe it's girlfriend.

Maybe it's

friendships.

Maybe it's whatever else

work.

I don't know.

We can prioritize this thing,

but there are consequences for that.

We don't get to choose the consequences.

We don't get to choose

any of the

things that could happen in and

around it.

The only thing that we get to choose is
that we

made a decision,

and we get to head in that direction.

We get to see what happens.

We don't get to choose anything

around that.

Like,

yeah, I got to

ask my dad if we could use

this monitor,

but at the end of the day, I didn't get to

choose the monitor

and how it looks,

whatever.

I just got

to use what was there, and

that's

we are

just stewards

of what's in front of us.

I think

a good

idea of

this is how

like a baby

works

with things.

They literally see

something.

They object permanence.

They go and they grab it,

and whatever happens happens,

dude.

There might be some liquid in

there, and I'm screwed.

Mom's going to kill me.

But I just go and I grab

it, and that's

it.

As we As we get older,

it's not as though that is less the

case.

We have more information.

We're more oblivious

to the...

Yeah, we're more oblivious back then,

but that doesn't mean that...

No, no.

Now.

We're more oblivious to the

idea that

don't know.

Yeah.

That's fair.

Yeah.

Because it's

that idea that the more you know,

the less you know.

The more you know,

the

arrogant you become

thinking that you know

everything

that there is to know.

And it's...

I mean, it's proven in what

you just said as far

as like

any

number of things could happen between

me thinking, I want to grab that

can and putting it to my

lips.

No.

Right.

And none of it you get to choose.

None of it.

But that one time you just did.

Yeah.

For everybody, he just

drinks from his

Dr.

Pepper.

Sponsorship pending.

I did want to touch on a few things.

I'll go backwards.

So we're sort of in the same line of

thinking for

most reason to last.

So I wrote a few notes.

think

God

made

us as beings

with free

will.

But God

has by

definition

ultimate

will.

So that lines

up with your argument.

You have the free will to

use everything that God's given you,

your cognition, your arms, whatever.

The Coke can

that he created

other people to create.

To be able to make that

decision and reach out

for it and take a

swig.

God has ultimate will

and what happens in between

and

what happens in the end.

That doesn't

negate the fact that we have free

will.

That just negates

that we have

ultimate will.

Any thoughts?

I think kind of the way that I put

that earlier was that we don't have,

we can't create

that we don't create

the circumstances

or create

really

anything

out of nothing.

We just,

we're really just moving

pieces

around.

Yeah.

So we can't create things

out of nothing.

Although

was talking about magic last week.

There's a lot of magic in daily

life that we just ignore.

One of which is work.

When we work, we

do create things out of nothing.

We create value out of

nothing.

Otherwise capitalism would

not work.

We'd all be trying to fight for the

same size piece of pie,

so to speak.

But when we work,

we make more pies.

We make a bigger pie

and we all get

a bigger slice at the end of the

day because of that.

And that's the magic of it.

We do create

value out

of nothing.

And value at its core

creation.

Well, I mean, we create

value out of time

is really what that ends up being.

Because it is our time.

disagree, I but continue.

Well, because

it's

the

idea that I

work so hard, I put

whatever effort in

and I

use whatever

materials and

whatever,

however long it takes me to do

this and whatever it is that I end up

using,

that

determines

the value.

And I guess in capitalism,

you can kind of decide

based off of your own personal

decision

what you want

the value to be because

you are the creator,

builder, whatever.

So you're thinking, yeah, go for it.

In and

basically

going out two points of

perception,

time and value

in a

way.

Value is perceived

by each person.

Time is perceived as a

value by everyone.

Say it one more time.

Okay.

Ready?

So kind of in the same

knowledge,

one man's trash is in the

man's treasure.

It's valued.

And time is

perceived by

basically everyone.

So you could

in one

time zone, but there are

many people in that time zone.

So we're all

experiencing

basically

the exact same

perception

while

value is

perceived like

the pencil.

I don't use it as much,

so it's not as valuable to

me.

You're writing down more notes than I

am, so it's more valuable to

you.

Okay.

So So use utility.

Stimming from need

or creates

need rather.

Yeah, supply and

demand.

What's the point?

I think I missed

the point.

I think he was just trying to define

terms.

Okay.

Yeah.

Was that what you were going for?

Basically, you can't

have value

and time as

they

can correlate together, but

they can't basically

run

the same

direction.

So they're two

different things.

So they're two different

things, is your argument.

They're not one and the same,

which is what Michael was saying.

So time is money.

It's false.

In a way.

We trade time for

money, but it's not

necessarily true.

You were going off of value

in something.

He was going off of time.

Okay.

So time is

value

not true, is what you're saying.

Time can be

valuable, but

it's not

one to one.

I agree.

So to

your point,

when

you

work, when you put

your time, your skill, your

effort

towards

creating something

that someone ends

up buying,

if they're buying it for entertainment

purposes, that's an

opinion.

That's a personal preference, that

personal value

that they attribute to that

item that they purchase.

But what if you have

B2B, business to business

purchase,

and

you

use

the same materials, same time,

same skill to create

this item?

All things

being equal, the time,

the skill,

and the

pieces

that went into it

costs

50 bucks.

But this person over

here has another business

that can take that

$50 price.

And even with

the markup, say you guys

charge 100,

they can buy it for 100 bucks,

mix it with other skills, time,

and parts,

and

sell it

for a

net profit too.

Where does that profit come from?

At the end of the day?

And where does it come

from?

And where does it end?

Because if your argument is

true,

either has to come from

something,

or especially it

has to end somewhere.

But it doesn't.

So they mark it up, is

what you're saying.

But how are they able to mark

it up and actually sell?

Because people value it.

Why do they value it?

Because they can either

create more value

out of it,

or to your point,

it's valuable

to them.

Right.

And in either

case,

why?

Why

are

they able to create more value

out of it?

And why does

the

person value it at all?

In which case?

In both cases,

I'm asking why?

Why could either

of those be the case?

Well, for the B2B,

they value it more

because they can

create more value

for other people.

So even if at the

end of the day our

understanding

of value is personal,

which is true, I agree with

that,

you're

still taking the

finite resources that we

have and making

them

efficient

creating

value for everybody.

So instead of taking

this

item that you created

that someone would

value at

30 bucks

and you would lose money,

now there's a net loss

of value.

You're giving it

to someone who values it

more because he knows

people that value it more.

And so it's

process of finding the people

that value things the most.

And it takes

really convoluted paths.

But that's the

idea behind capitalism.

So the

question...

either

way, I

would explain it

as time.

All of that is just

time.

And we could

call it as quality

of time or

how the time was spent.

So even

if a

B2B,

somebody is able to turn it over

for

profit, they're still

giving it to somebody else

who can value

it more.

And eventually that probably

ends up at somebody,

you know, if it keeps going

B2B,

it will probably

end up at somebody that

values it personally.

But why do they value it

personally?

Because of their time

spent with whatever that

is,

right?

Time isn't

just a

labor

number,

right?

It's not just about how much

time I spent on a thing,

but it's also

the reason

that capitalism works so well

is because we appeal

time,

right?

In someone's life.

Anytime.

We appeal

just

any amount of time that was

spent with

whatever...

Yeah, more time,

anything.

Anything

that...

Because the more

you

touch

something,

the more time you spend on it,

right?

And the more time you spend on it,

the more valuable...

It is to you.

The more money it

can be sold for

technically.

Well, not always.

Depending.

You gotta find someone who's

values it more.

Right.

And the

more value

that

becomes

to you,

really.

Emotionally.

And,

yeah.

So if somebody...

Sentimental, yeah.

So like nowadays...

That's why they have the phrase
sentimental

value.

Yeah.

So like nowadays, you know, there

are

new

versions of

old consoles coming out.

Well, that sells off the

shelves instantly.

Not because

the materials are

cheaper or more or

whatever, but because

people spend

hundreds, if not thousands

of hours on the old

console and now they get to

relive that.

Yeah.

And that value...

Or they think that they

can relive it.

Yeah.

They might not be able to,

but because they believe that

there's a possibility,

they're willing to chance it.

Yeah.

It's more like I get

to...

The nostalgic value.

And that's time.

That's not

time.

That's a good time.

Nice.

Well, not so.

But,

yeah, it's all based

off of time and

how

we used it, why we

used it.

That's what trauma is all about is

time.

What the time...

What was going on in that

time and how it's

affecting us now, how it's

affecting our time, the quality

of time.

I think your argument

sound,

but I think it's

not the argument

focus that I

had.

I think to

help you

understand,

to me it sounds like you're

arguing if

we breathe or not.

And I know that we breathe.

I'm saying,

is it good that we breathe

this

quality of air

or is it good that we

breathe this quality of air?

Right.

So I know that we travel

through time and everything at

the end of the day comes down to time.

But capitalism, the idea

behind it is quality.

Right.

Just like you said, quality of time.

And so we're trying to increase

the quality of time

for everybody.

And time at that point,

all things being equal, is

not part of the argument.

Does that make sense?

At what time?

At every time, because

there's nothing without time.

Right.

But I think more

speaking too, you said that

we're creating

something out

of nothing or value out of

nothing.

But it's

not out of nothing

because we have to appeal

to time.

The quality of time is mine.

I'm saying that

time

is on both

sides of the equation.

Whether we do something with that

time or we don't, we

spend time.

Right.

Okay.

So you're saying if we

don't reference time,

then it is something

out of nothing?

Yes.

Okay.

I mean,

yeah.

And we don't,

mathematically, we don't need

to reference time.

Yeah.

I mean, it...

If we reference

time because we're

borrowing or paying for

someone else's time, that's

where we bring time

into the equation.

But

that's But...

where another equation

cross sections

with

our equation

of creating value for other

people.

Well, and that's why I say that

my perspective is more

reductionist

because...

All encompassing.

At the end of the day, it is time

and you can't get away from

that and

it is quality of time or

whatever.

So it's trades of time.

Yeah.

I agree.

No, I agree.

And in

a more

not

underlying view, yeah,

absolutely.

argument was that

we create

something out of nothing.

But the original question

was...

Well, I guess it wasn't a question.

It was more of an assortment

or proposal

that God is the

ultimate.

Well, He's being of

ultimate will.

And we're beings of

free will.

How did we get from that

to that?

That's what I'm wondering.

I've lost it.

Whether

God

only creates or

we can

create something.

Oh, right.

Because Michael, you asserted that we

can't create.

So do you agree that we can create

now?

And why did you

assert that in the first

place?

Because...

Well, no, I don't

think that we

can...

Because that's not creating something out
of

nothing.

That's still creating something out of
something

because it's just

moving pieces around

nature.

Well, it's not moving pieces around.

Remember, your argument's

about time.

Time is on both sides of the equation.

If you remember

algebra, if you have X

on both sides, you can

cross them both out.

Depending on where they are.

But we also

agreed that either way,

is a result of time.

Either way, it's not possible without

time.

And so that's why it

doesn't

matter from

the

very...

I guess the molecular

structure of it,

whether or

not...

It's fine, but

no matter what, time

is still

there.

But you see what I mean when I say

we are beings of free

will.

We can create things,

but God

has

ultimate will.

So God has time.

And so if he takes that,

then we can't create anything.

But as soon as he gives

that,

we have the free will to

create the rest of the equation.

But it's still just moving

pieces around.

With free will.

And so I think

when it comes to

creating,

I'm talking about

literally...

From nothing.

Literally from nothing.

Okay, I agree with that.

And that's why...

Yeah, we have to

define terms.

Because creating

in God's

terms is literally nothing from

something.

Or at least

something from nothing.

It's something from thought.

And for us, we are

creating...

God is something too.

So you can't say it's

something from nothing, it's

something from God.

That brings up

some

other issue that I don't need

to get into.

It brings up

simulation

theory

sorts.

Like where

God's imagination is

what it really comes down to.

Okay,

yeah.

We don't

need to get out of that.

But I think

Daniel is basically

saying

God

is kind of...

He's the first creator,

he can create anything.

He's the master.

And I think

I do kind of agree with

Daniel.

Someone created

this.

They created

it,

but it also goes

back to...

It's my creator.

Yeah, we can create

things through God

that aspect.

And

I don't

think you disagree with that.

It's just we had a different

definition of creation.

Moving the OG pieces around.

And creation...

Yeah, it's just very

different from creation

with God.

But yeah,

so...

Well,

not

super

different because God says

that He created this us from the dirt.

From the dirt you

were created,

to the dust you

will be returned, right?

So God uses

His own creation to create

us,

His

ultimate,

the epitome of

His creation,

the one

that was described

as very good.

Right.

And I think in Psalms it even says

that God breathed out

stars.

So there is a sense of,

I mean,

whatever you call it,

I think the one

thing that

we can

actually get into

now is imagination.

Because

that's

the thing

that I

would say

is the

most tied

to whatever

idea

is free will.

Yeah.

Before we go down that route,

can I address a

few notes that I made

before?

Yeah,

So I'll just go in order here

backwards.

I wrote down if choice is,

if the choice is a sin

that we make,

was that

influenced or

controlled by

a good God?

If?

Setting up.

If the choice that we made

was a sin,

was that influenced

or controlled by

God?

And the idea behind

that is God

cannot force someone to do

something evil

because He's devoid of

that.

So who controls that?

Are we being controlled

by the enemy?

All right.

So open question.

The point of that question

is, or that

statement

is more

so pointing

towards the idea that we

have to have free will in some

way,

even if that's the most disgusting

way possible.

The other note that I wrote down

feels like we are

discounting God's creation

that

when we say

that we don't have

free will,

it's like saying that God

isn't able to

create

something

that is

awesome

enough

act on its own

without Him

supervising,

which is our

epitome of creation,

right?

We want an AI

that can think on its own.

We want a robot to do the

dishes on its own.

We don't want to have to be there

and babysit.

And like when we have kids,

like we have to take care of

them

meticulously

to start,

but then the end goal is

they go and take care of themselves

and they end up raising their

children of their own.

And we're there,

but like not

all the time because they take care of

themselves.

And so the ultimate goal is

letting

your creation go.

And who are we to say

God

can't

do that, can't create

us with a

least a little bit of free

will.

So that's the note that I have.

And then we were touching on

imagination for the next

part.

That actually

goes perfectly

into the idea

imagination

because

that is the

argument, right?

God can do

that.

God could do that.

And I would say that God did

do that.

That being?

That being.

The issue is what

control?

Or is the list the finer?

Control is

not

one

creating

something out of nothing.

Control is

taking

whatever is right in

front of me

and

doing

something with it

based off

of the mind that God

gave us, which is

create.

I mean, that is a

characteristic

of God.

He is the creator God.

That is a thing that we

get to do because we

are made in His image.

But - Oh,

so God

created from His own character.

Nothing has ever been created from
nothing.

God created

something out

of Himself,

right?

Or created in His image.

Everything that He created was good.

everything Well, based off of His

imagination or

His thoughts

or whatever.

Yeah.

My point is everything that He created was

good.

Where does the word good

come from?

From God.

God.

He gave angels

enough free will to fall.

And we're

a little higher than

the angels, according to the Bible.

I feel like that's enough

to say that we

have at least the

smallest amount of free will.

Enough to fall,

at least.

So that gives to the

argument that I had of like,

if we sin,

is that God?

Is that God controlling

that?

And then also when you said we

create,

like controlling something

in a way creating, right?

Isn't that sort of what you said?

Yeah, in the human

way.

take from our

own character

and we

create something.

Everything that we create is

from our own experiences.

Everything that we create comes from

our own character, our own interests,

in the same way that God created

something.

So in a way, we

are creating something out of

nothing

because that phrase

does not exist.

God created something out of Himself.

are creating So we

not in terms of materials.

Sure.

And that's generally

what

creation

is.

Well, let's just say

that's given.

That's off the table.

We've already established that God

created everything

OG.

But there's also nothing

under the sun that is

new.

Right.

Idealistically.

So,

well,

but not

technologically.

Like there's

different versions.

With Solomon,

Solomon, in my

opinion,

was describing

there is the idea

that

God created

literally everything

that everything

comes from.

Yeah.

So in that way, nothing under

the sun is new.

Yeah.

In the same way that we draw

inspiration from other

artists, other

inventors, other

technologists,

other companies,

our mom or dad,

like our friends.

Like we draw inspiration from

everybody and everything

around us, including God's

creation.

We draw inspiration from the

Bible

from God's creation, et cetera.

Right.

In that way, we have

no control over what

we create,

but is our

source of inspiration

from

which we,

in addition

to all

that, add our own character

and our own interests

on top of that to

create something out of

that.

Right.

Every good artist

has their

idols that they look

to,

that they are

inspired

by, or maybe they're

like heroes

art or of

sports or whatever.

Right.

And they modeled

their lives after that person

or they modeled their art

after that person's

art.

Right.

And so in that way, it's not original,

but also in that way, it's

original because you chose

to model after

that person.

And so that

choice,

that interest that you took in that

one thing out

quadrillion

options

the new thing.

Yeah.

And that's why

speaking

to the moral

issue of God,

does God cause us to

sin,

and to what

you're talking about creating,

making that decision,

that's where I would say

that

it's freewill

lies

what we decide

to focus on.

Because ultimately,

what you just said is, oh,

out of trillions of

options, I chose this one thing.

And yes, I would

say you absolutely

chose that one

thing.

Yeah.

Out of the

things that could have been done in

the garden when it came to sin.

Yeah.

And then you're also saying - I could
focus

on what God

said or I could focus on what the

serpent said and I focused on the

serpent.

Yeah.

And you're also saying that

God gave you the trillion

options and you chose one.

Yeah.

Where he could have gave you this

other set of one trillion

options and

you got to chose something out of that.

So that goes to my argument

of, we have free

will, but God has

ultimate will.

Yeah.

If he wanted to, he could give you one

choice.

Yeah.

Which is what he did with Jesus.

Right.

And he said, God,

is there any other way

to get this done?

And God was like, no, you got to die on
the cross.

No.

Well, and that's why I would

say that

at least my

understanding of what others

think free will

is,

not

focusing

again, this is

probably extremely

reductionist,

but it's

least the way that it's been explained to

me.

Free will is that

chose.

chose

this,

this is mine.

No, it's the

idea that you ultimately

made the decision.

When

it comes

down to it,

it was me.

Which is not true, that's not what I'm
saying.

Yeah.

And so that's why

I'm being very

careful of how I say it.

I am focusing,

I am choosing, I have

the option, I have

the

free will to

focus on

whatever thing but

everything else around

that I have

nothing.

No control.

No power.

And, you know,

that's the thing that I get

to control is

my focus.

Like I would say

like our eyes or

what we focus our

ears on.

I think the senses are a

very good

indicator

what free will

is because I

get to focus, like I can

stand here and I can just

focus on my feet right

now, right?

Or I can just focus on

one point and

that's free will.

That's what I would call free will.

But everything else around

it,

everything else, I mean, but

even then, I

didn't make my eyes.

We don't know the

intricacy of

our eyes, our skin.

God created all

of the senses that we have so

that we could experience

everything around us.

And so I would really

reduce it down to this

focus

because,

and I would even say it because we

didn't even create that word.

So it's really,

really hard.

Like we didn't create our brains to be

able to focus.

We didn't create our personalities.

That's just how we were born.

And so

then

that leads me to the

fact that

this is

part of the logistics.

It just doesn't matter.

We've been delivered to

this earth to experience

things.

And

think so that the

teeniest bit of

free will that we have

was and

has to be given

by God.

And in that way, we have no free

will.

Because what does he call

us to?

Well, he calls us to obedience

to him in

subscription.

And what is obedience?

It's not,

I get to do whatever I want.

Whatever you want.

Yeah, no, it's whatever you want within
these

bounds.

Yeah.

And all the bounds are created

by God, by the way.

Right.

And but those bounds are

wonderful.

I'll

probably steal this from someone.

Most definitely.

I just don't know who.

You put children

in a yard with

no fences.

They gather in the center.

You put children in

a yard with fences.

They explore everything.

Yeah.

Because they feel safe.

Yeah.

And it's the same way with us.

Dang, that's good.

Yeah, no, no credit to me

at all.

Holy cow.

If I remember who said

that, I'll say it.

Oh, wow.

Wow.

Right.

So boundaries are a good thing.

God created us with

personality though.

Like the personality that we

were given,

it was given.

And so

we,

it's almost like,

you know, how we're talking about spirit

and soul.

don't know, two

episodes ago or something.

It's almost like

the

whatever free will we have

is a gift

that

is not to be taken

back by God

controlled by God,

but it is not

ours.

It's a gift

given,

like you said,

when we're talking about Christmas,

with

no merit.

Like we did not

deserve this gift,

but God chose to give

Michael

with his personality,

Stephen with his personality,

me with my personality.

And he chose to give that

everybody

who experiences our

personalities and

to us who lives

with it.

Yeah.

Right.

I think with

my idea of

free will being

focused,

people are definitely going to

hear that and they're going to be like,
oh, so we

have no agency.

We have no autonomy, whatever.

Especially when it comes down to

we didn't even choose our

personality.

Yeah.

And

the

issue with that

is that you live in

the world right now and you exist

and you

are experiencing things the same

way that I am.

And so how,

and so the question is, Michael,

how can you, how are

you reckoning with

existence

the

way that

most people

are where,

oh, I can just get up

from this chair and just leave and
whatever

and

whatever and make

whatever decisions and say whatever it

is that I want and

whatever.

How are we

coming

to those conclusions?

And.

And

the

thing is about

that's why I say it

doesn't matter,

because this is such

an intricate

subject.

I mean,

it's like

the

logistics of

salvation.

It doesn't matter

because I can't wrap

my head around it.

I just can't.

I mean, I

can definitely say

that

I can

hold my perspective about

the whole free will thing,

but it's

not salvific.

It doesn't save me.

What saves me is knowing

that

the Bible does not

matter.

Yeah,

ultimately.

And,

but

it does matter if you

believe in

Calvinism, no.

Right.

Look at him drink his beer.

And it matters.

Well, it matters if you

hold that God can only

be a good God if we have

free will.

And free will

that

I would

think based

off how it's been explained to

me, which is tied

get to choose.

My choice is

what

makes

this possible.

Yeah.

And, and the

thing that I would just

say

in light of all of this

is that if anything is

focused on you, it's wrong.

You're not the object.

You're the observer.

You are the observer.

You get to

take place in the

world that God has created.

And if he says that

is by hearing the word of

God and believing

on Christ,

then you'll be saved.

That is how it happens.

That is the logistic that we

need to worry about.

It would be really weird if I

got on a ride in

Disneyland and got

off the ride and I was like,

man,

that was the

greatest ride ever because I

rode it.

That would be weird.

That'd be very weird.

And people look at me strange.

We don't say that.

No, we don't.

We say that was a great

ride.

Well, yeah.

Yeah.

These, the people that

created this ride,

like they made something

amazing.

Yeah.

And like, I want to

go again.

You know, like I want to experience that
again.

And us saying

that's

man,

I don't know what we say,

but

saying that we are

in control in

a way is

focusing

on your

experience

much

that

you are

saying that.

This ride would be nothing

without me.

Well, if I

didn't show up

for this ride,

this ride would be

nothing.

Like if it's the

idea of if a tree falls in

the forest and no one says it,

does it fall?

Does it make a noise?

Of course it makes a noise.

And that's how

I think people view the gospel.

And I could be wrong.

They could not be viewing it this way.

And that's why I think that

this argument

an intellectual argument

that

doesn't

need to hold a lot of

weight.

Because

you do view

the gospel in light of

yourself

and

not just the

glory of God, and

that we get to take part

in His glory and His

goodness and His kindness and His

love and His joy and the

peace and all the things

that come with that,

then if

you don't view it that way,

then yeah, you're wrong.

I'm going to tell you you're

wrong because everything

in the Bible is for the glory

of God in that sense.

Oh yeah, absolutely.

That's the cornerstone.

And in the same

breath,

because the

first and greatest

commandment is

love the Lord and the

God with all your heart.

And then the second is just

like it, to

love

others

as yourself.

We're not talking about the commandments.

We're talking about Jesus' take on

the Old Testament.

Yeah.

And

that is how

we're supposed to be,

in Jesus'

mind,

you cannot have one without

the other.

You are going to

love others and you

are going to love

God if you love others

like this.

I wonder if it's the same for

and creation.

It's inseparable in that

we are here to

experience God's creation

and God

wouldn't have created it without

someone to experience it.

That's just conjecture.

But that's a

good point, is

ultimately

it's

for the glory of God.

Yeah.

And how does God get

glory if there's no one to

glorify Him?

And I mean,

even

the rocks

would cry out if we

didn't.

Yeah.

a good That's point.

But,

yeah, we can't view it

in light of, oh,

the gospel is good because

get to

receive this.

It's, no, the gospel

is good because

God did

something

incredible

for people that

are not

incredible.

Thus making them righteous.

Infinitely good.

Yeah.

Like God's good deed

towards people who

deserve nothing but

death and

condemnation

makes it

infinitely more good,

which is God's character.

And speaking of God's

character,

let's transition into the K.

Okay.

Well - If we want to talk

about this more, let's talk about this

next time.

Sure.

Yeah.

I do want to double

check and see if Stephen has anything

to say.

For sure, for sure.

We've been

railroading this whole

thing.

No.

No?

Nope.

You guys have mainly covered it.

Good conversation.

I do

really want to

emphasize though that

have some

semblance of choice

all day long,

every day,

whatever.

And to be able to

articulate that, I think,

can only be

found in the infinite

and

eternal.

And

don't want to make it

seem like I have it all figured

out because that's the whole point of

my book.

Is that

nobody has it

all figured out.

No, never.

And anything

pointing to

having it all figured out is

just human

pride.

Arrogance.

And so

mostly

what I want to point to

is that it's

all for the glory of God.

And whatever choice we make

should just be the glory

of God,

whatever it is, whether it - is No, it
will

be.

It will be.

And you can be on one side

of that or the other.

You can be on the good side.

Be on right the side of creation.

Yeah.

So,

but yeah,

let's transition.

Well,

to transition, we're going to talk about

the why

behind the trees.

And that really

connects to free will

as well.

those were Why there in the first place?

Yeah, why were they there in the

first place?

Yeah.

And my

take

on this is that

God put those

there

for the

sake of free will,

for the sake of love,

ultimately.

Because does love

have any meaning if

there's no choice

at all?

If God created Adam

and Eve so

lovingly,

and I'm not being sarcastic

here, He created them

like I described

in the last episode, like

with

care and with

detail out of the ground

and

then out of Adam's rib.

And

was like this

magnificent

moment when He

united the two of

them.

Because I don't know if you remember,

but Adam was

naming the animals

and he saw that there

was female and male of

each kind,

and he didn't find any

of his.

He didn't find any suitable

companion, yeah.

And so God then put him

to sleep and made him

a suitable mate.

And that was the plan all along.

But imagine

feeling that desire,

feeling that need, that want,

and then God

giving

that to you in like the

most perfect

way.

And

so God created

from

love.

Yeah.

And that's clear in that

alone.

But God and

His character is

love.

That's where the idea

of love officially

comes from.

And so

if we

all have this understanding

that love is

chosen,

it's

not a feeling alone.

It's something that you choose.

Like I choose

to love my girlfriend

and

that's

not

just a feeling.

And if it's just a feeling,

that's like yellow

flag.

Like,

are you going to choose to love

this person

such a huge question.

And so

that God chose

to create

us and to love

us,

that was His choice.

And then He created us to

choose to love

Him back.

And the way that He gave us that choice

was by giving us

the tree

of the knowledge of good and evil.

And giving us a

command saying, don't eat

of this tree.

for

when

you eat of it.

Funny how he said when.

When you eat of it,

you'll die.

That

allows for

ultimate

love.

It allows

for us

to freely love

God.

And I think that God created

that

tree

knowing

that

that was the only way

to quote -unquote

true love.

Knowing that we

would choose the

tree over him.

Knowing that

he would have

to choose

over him

and over his own

son.

So being

God, he's omnipotent.

He sees all, he knows all.

He's all powerful.

He saw that coming for

sure.

And so

creates the tree.

And I'm not a

mathematician, but I said this

last time.

Two perfect

people

plus

the option to sin

times infinity

equals sin.

It has to do every single time.

That's what it always

balances to.

And you could say,

no, it doesn't.

Like there was a possibility.

But come on.

Like in a society where we believe

that evolution

could be a

possibility

and all it takes

is just more time.

Infinite amount of time

in the garden plus the

option for sin in two

perfect people.

Definitely equal sin.

Every single time.

It has to.

Most temptation.

Just the

availability of sin

is temptation.

And infinite

time would just grow that.

Yeah, it grows the risk

over time.

Like if

two people

in the garden

in number

of risk,

right?

Or I guess X

number of risk.

Each day

you roll

dots and it doesn't

matter how small the

risk is.

If there is a risk

and there is a risk because

the trees are there

and the people are

there and they have

access to the trees

or to the tree

rather.

That enables the

risk.

So there is a risk,

however small.

And then you add an infinite

amount of time that

has to equal the

risk occurring.

Has to.

And so when God did

that,

He was enabling perfect

love.

Perfect, reciprocal love.

But at the same

time

knew

how it was going to

end.

God's no fool.

He's dealt

with this before with

Lucifer.

Think about the

same

math

equation, if you will.

If two perfect people

plus

sin

times

infinity

equals

sin,

then

two

imperfect people

plus

infinite God.

And infinite

love

will

equal a

sense

of,

I've got this,

compounds,

guess,

the love,

the feeling of love, the

joy,

the whatever.

Because I mean, we

look back 2 ,000

years at the death

of Christ

and

I mean, it can still

make us emotional.

We can read that entire

description

and

we can look back and we

can think to ourselves,

wow.

And we can see the ripple

effects of that and think,

wow.

And we can look at the apostles,

I mean, just at the apostles

and we can be like,

wow.

And

compounds

because there's more and

more effect

and that's,

everybody points to,

oh, well, God is

evil, I guess,

for allowing

the

possibility of sin.

It's like,

yeah, but we as

believers get to

look

at the fact that we

failed, fail.

we went against God,

and His love is

compounding

every

single

moment after.

And it will eventually

end in us

spending

glory

with Him.

And that

is also a

very weird concept.

It's very similar to forgiveness

because - I've never thought about

the compounding effect of God's

love.

We're negating

evil

with

this thing that is

just so - I mean,

by taking on

burden,

more pain, whatever,

and saying that

that is

a mercy,

that is a love, because the

alarm bells too

evil,

tying it back into our conversation

about

pain and all that

different stuff.

There's,

and I just said so many

things that I can even fully

comprehend that I just

said,

but

that

is the

case.

I mean,

in a relationship,

I've been in enough relationships

to know when

somebody wrongs

you,

and then

they

better on that, and

you stick with

them,

they may even bring

it up over and over

again.

I cannot believe

that you forgave me for

them.

I cannot believe

that you are

still with me.

It's just complete

and utter disbelief.

Me being

imperfect,

that's crazy.

But with God, it's like,

I cannot believe that

this is still

happening.

Because the end of the story should

have been, we

sinned death,

instant destruction.

Let's re -kick thing.

this turned We them all off.

Yeah,

restart.

But that's not the case.

He stuck it out.

I think the reason for

that

because of love.

Because God's character is

love,

I just switched cameras on

accident.

There we go.

Because God's character

is love,

and he's also

omnipotent,

which

is all -powerful,

but also all

-knowing.

Knowing that

order to enact his

character fully in love

with

results in

the fall of man,

he also knew that

creating man would mean

costing

his son,

because he

also knew his perfect

sense of

justice.

He also knew

the

cost

of sin,

and it's infinite

offense to him.

And you seem

like you have something.

Oh man.

Yeah, go for it.

I'm just dying.

So the

thing is that we attribute as humans

to the greatest

forms

love.

What are they?

When you don't deserve it, when

you deserve it the least.

Think about media.

Think about movies, books,

whatever,

things that someone would

say to someone they love.

This is the

peak.

This is the most that I could

ever give, and this

is it.

This is my love.

Can't live without you.

Okay.

That's right.

Stephen, do you have any ideas?

It's like I can think of the

concept, I guess,

but I'm trying to figure

out what

it's

called.

But go on.

I will give you the world,

and I would

give you my

life.

What are the two things

that God did for us?

He gave us the

entire

world.

He gave us everything.

And he also gave us

his life

on the

cross.

Those are the two things.

Those are the pinnacle

human

love,

and God did

without

asking

us.

And crap, what was the

thing that you were just saying?

There's something else.

Yeah,

God did this knowing the

cost.

Yes.

He knew

that we would

do whatever,

even though he gave us the world.

He knew that we were going to sin.

Yeah, and idiot can see

that.

Me being the idiot.

Yeah,

and

doing

what's that

analysis?

It's called a specific

analysis, but the pros

and cons

whatever,

he decided

that

instead of

leaving us

to our devices, which I

brought this up last time too,

instead of leaving us to our

devices,

leaving us completely

alone, because

quite honestly,

if he were to have left us

completely alone,

think of what the

Tower of Babel would have

been.

We would have

gone so

far into

the perversion.

If we did not

get the curses,

the Tower of Babel probably

would have come sooner.

I mean, we would

call ourselves God.

And if God didn't intervene, if

God didn't destroy

us and

allow one

family

to survive,

that was faithful.

I think

that's

widely accepted.

Oh yeah, there's all these people

that are

evil and

awful and blah, blah, blah.

It's like, yeah,

okay, I guess it makes sense to

kill them off, because they

weren't going to turn to Christ.

They weren't going to turn to God, and

God just destroys them.

But the mercy

was

allowing this other

family,

who also wasn't

perfect,

by the way,

to continue

on, to be

on the Ark.

But

we're looking

at the

idea

that God would allow sin

at all, or

would allow

this option,

it's like,

because of

choice.

Chat GPT, I

had

this,

I had to pull this up.

Why did you pull that up?

Well, no, that's right, yeah.

Okay.

You were talking about

lot

of things,

but you said something

that made me think about

this,

in regards to choice.

This is how it's written out.

No choice

leads

to no experience.

No experience

leads to

no growth, and no

growth leads to no

becoming.

So the

first part really hit

me.

No choice

leads to no

experience.

What I would attribute

that to is

get rid of

all our senses,

which means we can

experience

nothing.

We cannot

experience.

If we cannot

experience,

then that's it.

Yeah, you think about

the

person that

didn't have any sight or

hearing, they could only feel,

right?

They could taste, they could smell.

But how do you communicate with that
person?

So it's almost

that

train of

thought, that

choice

so heavily

tied

our experience.

So bear with me.

Maybe,

maybe

free

will,

free choice

actually

truly

the

freedom to

experience.

Yeah.

That lines up

with

Solomon's

take in Ecclesiastes 2,

where he says nothing

really matters at the end of the

day,

except for

enjoying what

God has created.

Ultimately,

I think I created the world for more than

that, but with the

curse came

the

pointlessness of work.

Right.

I just thought that

was really crazy.

Yeah, that's astounding.

Because then it goes

into

choice

versus will,

and it says will is capacity

and choice is direction.

And so I guess

in a sense,

I'm visualizing as

like choice choice is like a

compass.

and will is

like...

Ability.

Well, the space.

Like, yeah, like physical

ability, like I can

go...

Within the bounds.

And do the things,

like the bounds is

probably the entire

universe, or I

mean, depending on your situation,

whatever.

Which you did not choose.

Which we did not choose.

Rather than,

oh, and it even says here, will is the

engine and choice is the

steering.

So it's like,

and nothing in that

really says,

I'm creating anything,

I am determining

anything.

It says,

I just, I am just subject to...

You're on the road.

Yeah, I'm on the road.

I'm in the car, I'm driving.

But you didn't create the road or the car.

Yeah.

And people were riding along with

me.

You've got the gas.

Yeah.

You've got the steering wheel.

You've got the hands to move the steering

wheel.

But all of those things were given

to you as well.

So in that way that

everything was given to

us,

we don't have free will.

Just like when you see a kid

in a Porsche,

and you're like, your daddy gave you

that Porsche.

Like, don't smirk at

me.

Screw off.

In the same way,

Satan says to us, your

daddy gave you that

free will.

Use it the way that I want

you to use it.

That's interesting.

That's a crazy

perspective.

But we still have free

will.

Cause God gave it to us.

Cause I still eat the

fruit.

Yeah, let's exercise it to

obey God's will.

And God

tests

us.

That's another thing.

It's another,

yeah, it's the

expression of, do

you love me?

Do you love me?

That Jesus hired you.

Peter, do you love me?

Michael, do you love God?

Do you love him?

And it's like,

Peter had a choice in that

moment.

He could say, oh yeah, I love

you.

And then, you know,

go and not.

Yeah, which he did.

Which he did.

We all do.

Yeah,

but at the

same time, he still died for

Christ.

Yeah.

And he still proved that he loved

him.

Maybe that works as dead.

Yeah, but also

are dead without

Christ.

And it

doesn't matter.

Going off the rails here, hold

on.

My thought.

Love going off the rails.

Oh, you mean like mentally,

you can't.

You need to get that going.

Yeah, I know.

You do too.

Gosh damn.

I was just gonna say like.

Go for it.

We,

this argument, I'm so

sorry.

Like the argument

free

will and

predestination, like it

bothers me.

Because it's like,

when the Bible

says

faith without works is

dead.

What can the dead

do?

Nothing.

Absolutely nothing.

But it's talking about the faith.

But it's talking about faith and

what is dead faith.

It's nothing.

It does it,

I mean,

but the thing is, that it

exists.

It's there.

It affects

things.

It's negative.

It's whatever it is.

It's happening.

But when you compare

everything to God

and that he

is the substance,

it's nothing.

And it doesn't matter.

So why are we having

this debate

matter?

Why does it matter that

they made the

decision or

that they had choice

to eat of the

fruit.

Love.

Because of love.

But also like,

we're focused so much

on the fact

that, oh, they had the

choice, which means that

love.

I like the

idea that choice

is the

opportunity for experience,

not I created

the

opportunities

in front of me and

made that

decision

based off of

my own will and

power.

Yeah, my ultimate power.

Like God gave me the opportunity

to experience this

and

determined the

circumstances.

Yeah.

Or the circumstances,

the consequences, the whole thing.

I really like that explanation.

Anyways, I'm sorry.

That was creepy.

I could

keep going

on this for forever.

Yeah, no, it sounds like you're excited

about the idea.

And the idea is,

like that's a really good

framing

that I've

probably not heard

before.

Cause the way that

I've thought of it

before is

in the perspective

of...

love,

of God's love, and not

the frame of our

own

ability

to experience.

Right?

And so,

let

finish, if I can,

the thought that I have,

because it goes full circle.

So, because God's

all -powerful, all

-knowing,

He knew that He had

give

us the free will

disobey Him

order for it to be real

love.

But He also knew that equation

would end in sin,

which means He would have

to give His Son

satisfy His

justice,

make

things right, make

things good, and make things

balanced again.

And He had to do it in a

way that's

accentuated His

character ultimately.

So, that includes justice,

that includes love, that includes good,

that includes everything

good about Him.

That includes

His mercy, His grace,

all of His characters.

I wish I could know all of them all

off the top of my head.

It's probably infinite,

honestly.

Honestly, yeah.

Like I said last time, scratching the

surface,

barely after

infinite time.

The only way

that

could become

permanently

safe,

permanently

relationship

with God,

permanently in His

arms in relationship

with Him,

was through this

method.

And so,

God did it this way,

giving us choice,

therefore,

the ability to fully

love Him,

knowing that we wouldn't,

knowing that He would.

And He would, through His

Son,

through the sacrifice of His own

Son,

through the sacrifice of Himself

on the cross,

for our sins to

justify His

need for justice.

And

in doing so,

taking the choice away

from us,

and choosing to

die on the cross,

He makes us so we no

longer have the choice

not

choose Him anymore.

Hmm.

And that's the only way that we can be

safe.

And that's the only way that

true

love can be fully expressed,

is through choice.

What you're bringing up brings

up a good point.

There are rules

that we don't

actually understand.

Oh, yeah.

There's a

cosmic rule,

if you will,

law,

however you want to put

it,

that

basically makes it to

where,

like,

God functions under

these things, and He does not

reveal all

that He knows,

all that He thinks, all that He,

He doesn't reveal all these things to

us.

He doesn't reveal this law.

He doesn't reveal these

rules,

because

they're not necessary for

salvation.

Yeah.

But

it's clear

that it

exists.

It is something that

He functions off

of.

And we

are also subject

to it.

And I think it's important

that,

I mean, in the many

things, in God's

infinite nature, in

God's

mystery,

it's just another

thing that we have

accept.

Really, yeah, accept, that He's

asking us to accept.

That's why it's called faith.

He's not giving us all the information,

because if He gave us all the information,

we would be dead.

It's the equivalent,

probably, of just being

present.

Yeah, we'd be overloaded.

And it would be too

much.

I mean, it's even overloading just

us thinking about these

things right now.

And we can't even

articulate

it.

The fact that this has taken

two hours

perfect enough.

Yeah.

And we've

probably...

No, we definitely have only

scratched this.

I feel like we

haven't even scratched surface.

Yeah, there's no scratching.

Yeah,

we've

been lightly

blown

on the surface.

Yeah, Like, oh, this is a

nice

surface.

I'm trying to scratch into it, but

it's impenetrable.

It really is, because God is

so vast.

Yeah.

And me

saying

all of this is speculation.

Yeah.

100%.

There's nothing in the Bible that says
that.

There's nothing.

There's nothing in the Bible that says

that what he did

was

to ultimately

fulfill

perfect love.

But to me, that's always

made sense.

A friend asked me that.

Why was that a possibility

in the garden?

And this is the answer that I came up

with at the time.

And it

clicked,

and it made a lot of sense to me

at the time.

And I haven't heard an argument

that makes more sense than that.

It's like, God's perfect

love had to be expressed, and

we had a choice.

And in that choice, he

knew that we would sin.

And in that sin, he knew that he would

need to sacrifice

and die

in order to satisfy

his own justice, in

order that we could

just

fully

saved

from ourselves

and from our sins,

so that we

could choose

Christ.

And at the

same time, Christ

choose us

so that

we had that

ultimate

fulfillment

of perfect

love,

where there was a choice on both

sides,

God being the ultimate chooser

and us being the little

chooser,

and as much as he gives

us the ability to choose.

Well.

And

that

follows scripture

where it says, God chose

us from the beginning of time.

Oh,

it says that?

But he also gave

us the ability to choose him.

And so it's not that we

don't choose, it's that God chose

us first.

We chose him second.

Then that's nothing to brag

about, but we did

choose.

And true love,

in my opinion, needs

a choice.

Well.

And it's not manipulation

either,

because it's perfect love.

And I've heard this

phrase recently of,

it's not manipulation

if it's good for the other person,

it's influence.

And people go like,

ah, yeah, that's what it

is, right?

Because we all want to justify our

own sinful

manipulations.

But in a way,

that's true.

Like if it's good for the other

person, it's not

manipulation in an evil

way.

And so in the same way that God

is the ultimate

chooser of those whom he

saves,

it's not

manipulation.

Well, it's like indoctrination.

There's a huge

misunderstanding with the word

indoctrination.

Indoctrination is literally just

teaching.

Literally.

That is like, actually what it means,

you're just teaching people

something.

But the

connotation of indoctrination

is, oh,

yeah, brainwashing.

It's like, okay, but propaganda.

But that's because of the people

that have done that

in a manipulative

way.

It's based off

of bad experience.

Because they were teaching something that
was

wrong.

They ended up

either serving

the person who was teaching,

not

serving, doesn't matter.

But in the end,

hurting the person who was being

taught.

Because they were being taught

something that was wrong.

So indoctrination is

only

manipulative

and

propaganda and

brainwashing.

If it's wrong,

would you send a child

to school to

learn two times two equals

four and all that?

And brainwashing.

Who says,

under whose authority?

Well, it's

technically brainwashing.

Because that child didn't know

it before.

That child

would probably

have not come to that conclusion

on their own.

That's the definition of

brainwashing.

Why is it not brainwashing?

Because it's the truth.

And so indoctrination of

the word

in the way that God

wrote it

and intended it for

its original audience

is not

indoctrination to your part.

But I think we should end

there.

What do you think?

One more point.

Because you were talking about,

wow,

we're making a good time.

Right?

We're actually coming to a good

close.

We can change.

We can.

Well, I don't know if this has changed.

the The

idea of...

love,

and it is,

it's

a powerful

idea

the Bible,

but it's the

union,

excuse me, the contract

between two people.

And

the

Bible talks about

light of Christ and

His church,

right?

And His bride is

the way that it describes it.

But in

Genesis,

it lays out for this

reason,

a man is to leave

his mother and

father

and

to,

I can't remember what Bible the says.

And Bible the talks about marriage as a

contract.

It doesn't talk about it as this

lovey -dovey,

emotional...

Well, not even a contract.

Well, it's

a covenant,

but it is.

What is a

covenant?

Well,

it's a

pact.

It's a

covenant

covers.

Covenant covers in

the fact that

you do something that

goes against

the original

idea behind

the covenant, it's covered.

So that's the

idea of marriage is

cover

you

this promise

that I'm going

to be with you, I'm going

to spend the rest of my life

with you

no matter

what

and

treat you this way.

I promise, no

matter what you do,

say,

don't do, don't

say to

or to anybody

else.

And then now the person

covers me with

that same promise.

And so it's two

promises

covering

two people.

And it's not

like, if you break

your promise,

my promise is broken too.

No, it's if you break your

promise,

I mean, that sucks.

That really does.

But it's totally not

even...

It's not associated with the promise

that I gave to you.

Yeah.

It's not dependent.

It's not dependent

where

a contract is.

And it's a picture of Christ

in the Church.

Stronger than a contract.

It's infinitely stronger.

Yeah,

because it's

still

in a sense because it's

an agreement between

two people.

Well, you...

So A mystery three.

But it's a...

Basically, can two people

walk together unless they

agree to?

Right.

Yeah.

So there is an agreement

there that

you both make this covenant

toward each other.

You can't just go up to a

random person and make a covenant over

them.

I guess you could if you want to do, but

that's weird.

But I mean, I guess that's what Christ

did.

But...

So two people decide

to make a covenant with each other.

But that covenant is not one covenant,

it's two covenants.

And then it's a model

of the covenant that

Christ made with the

Church.

Yeah.

And that we are to make

with Christ.

But Christ being

God

knows that we are

unable to keep.

And us being

bonded

in marriage know that

neither of us are able to

keep.

And that we are going

to fail.

But this is our

best attempt at remembering

what Christ has done for

and for the Church as

a whole.

And living that out.

Yeah.

And

was going to say that that

idea,

there's a

choice that's being

made in that.

There's a decision.

And

the

way that I

kind of explain, determine,

is completely

terminate.

And ultimately, for us as humans, we

don't know

God

completely.

So based on our

limited knowledge, we have

to decide which is

based on faith.

And it's especially based

on, or

it's definitely based on

faith with

another

human.

Because the person

is going to change, we don't know how
they're going

to change.

And so

this

idea that God is

willing

go to

allow

offense, allow more

offense,

allow ultimate

vulnerability.

Yeah.

And

the point of dying on the cross,

I mean, it's the forgiveness

thing.

He was offended, or he

was,

yeah,

there was an offense against him,

and then he took it again.

And he took it, I mean,

in a sense, even greater

than the

first one.

What prosecutor would ever

show up to the

court and say, you know what,

this guy murdered someone,

but I'll take his punishment.

That's crazy.

Nobody would do that.

Yeah.

No prosecutor would ever

do that.

But God was like, hey,

you offended me.

You, I mean,

yeah, you didn't.

And then the judge is like, good idea.

You know what?

I'm going to die.

Yeah.

And

again,

he took the penalty,

but he's like, if you don't

accept that, if you don't

choose that, if you don't want

to experience all that

can be shared in that,

then you're

choosing the other side.

And that's where choice

definitely

exists.

By choosing the other side, you mean

not choosing Christ?

Yeah, by not choosing Christ.

You're choosing destruction.

You're choosing to

skip.

To skip court.

Yeah.

Go to hell.

Pretty much.

Yeah.

Crazy.

That's heavy.

Okay.

One more thing before we end.

What are we going to talk about next week?

Because I have no idea.

Usually there's like a progression

and - I feel like we could

touch on this topic again.

We can touch on this again.

So let's think about it throughout the
week.

I'll monitor, see if anybody

makes any comments.

I doubt it at this point,

because we're not pushing this podcast

yet.

Yeah.

We do have one

viewer.

Yeah,

talk to other people, talk to our mentors,

parents,

etc.

And see

if there's anything else we could touch

on this point, because it is a huge,

huge topic.

So the next episode will

be choice part

two.

I like it.

Because there really is a lot.

Yeah, there is a lot.

And if we

come to

find that there's not,

feel like we are probably

missing something.

But we can move on.

Yeah.

Sure.

Okay.

That sounds good.

Then I will

lead

us out.

Wow.

I'm impressed.

Yeah.

I'm really impressed.

Look at that.

Almost two and a half hours.

This is the end of

the episode

five

- That deserves a celebration.

The Perfume DK Podcast.

Give me some.

Hey -o.

Hi, Pat.

Yeah.

You guys did most five

episodes.

We mostly do most of them.

You're not in a talkative mood today, huh?

Dude, last episode.

You were talking.

I think you tired yourself out.

You

talked

a lot during that.

He's got talk enough for

every

five episodes, apparently.

Maybe four.

Dude, I mean,

anything that you have to say, I

really love to hear.

And - Whenever you have something to

say, - a have I If you nothing to say, I
have

a feeling like it's

just

because

it's all being covered.

You're waiting for the one thing that

us idiots don't actually see.

That's -

Who's the actual smartest person in

the room?

Honestly, dude,

I think it is Steven.

Isn't that what the Bible says?

What?

Even a fool can appear wise if

they stay silent?

Yeah.

Not to say you're a fool.

That's what you definitely are, sir.

No, no, I said even

if.

Even a fool.

There's a good possibility.

Yeah, for all of

us, yeah.

But no, we

- Wow.

Five episodes.

Technically six episodes because of

episode zero.

Right.

And 2 .5?

And two - seven episodes.

Wow.

Dang.

Wow.

That's crazy, dude.

We're pretty close to our goal here.

But we thank you

if you're listening

to this.

For joining this discussion

and we hope,

honestly,

that it is edified.

Infinitely edified by this

podcast.

It's crazy

the ways

that I've been influenced

by it.

Yeah, I'm saying.

And entertained.

Listening back is so

fun.

Because one,

I see all the places

where, especially when it's late,

it's like,

that didn't make any sense.

And we kept

going.

Yeah.

But - It happens.

Even aside from

that, we're having

a good time.

We're not taking ourselves

so seriously because,

at the end of the day, And at at

this table, we agree that -

salvation is the Christ and

that's the most important thing

and everything else

that we speculate on

there

for us,

given to us by God, to

speculate on

and to

enjoy.

We're choosing to enjoy

it in the way that we are,

enjoy it honestly.

And if there are more

topics that we miss

or...

That you're interested in.

If there's passages

that

you'd like us to go through

in the perfumed

portion.

The last few episodes, I think we've just
been

going over for concepts.

We'll probably start back

up on

going

through scripture in the next

episode.

We'll see.

But when we get it up

and running, please message us

on whatever

platforms,

Spotify, YouTube.

Wherever else.

iTunes,

iTunes, podcasts, whatever.

And leave us a review,

constructive, hopefully,

criticisms, comments.

Or just bang your head on the keyboard.

Yeah, all the

things.

Just want that good

algo juice.

I know, yeah.

What did you say?

Algo juice?

Algo.

Algorithm.

Yeah, we're feeding the

algorithm.

Okay, yeah.

There we go.

Beautiful.

I stole that one.

I can't take credit.

Algo juice.

Anyways,

we hope you will join us

next episode.

And these episodes

will actually

probably start airing

in the next few months.

Next year,

2026.

Yeah, good old 2026.

Wow.

I really feel like

we've come a long ways.

And I'm really excited for the future.

Yeah, me too.

Before we go, what's

that animal on your hat?

It is a kiwi.

Can you show that to the camera?

Sure.

This was given

to me by some

friends.

They...

Oh, it's ignoring

you.

It's trying to find you.

You can kind of see it.

Yeah.

Okay.

It was given to me by some friends.

They gave me that and they gave me

a sweater with a kiwi

with sunglasses

on it.

And they're like, these are the

most Michael thing we've ever

seen.

That's fair.

That's awesome.

That's your spirit animal?

I don't get it.

I don't understand.

I get it.

I don't know anything about it.

I get it.

Michael the bird.

The bird.

Yeah.

Steven, you get that?

You think that's his spirit

animal?

They have the strangest

sound.

Apparently it's a weird bird.

It's fair.

That's all I know.

Apparently it's a weird bird.

The other thing is, is

that the

females,

whenever they have the eggs,

it tastes like 80 to 90

% of their body.

So their organs are shifted.

Holy cow.

Here's the thing.

We were saying how

Steven is the most

intelligent person at this table.

The more things that you

spout out, like

you're

just off the top of

your head.

It's like, okay.

You know, he's going to college for

mechanical engineering.

What?

Yeah.

Right now.

You're going to college for mechanical

engineering right now?

Yeah.

He says it like it's nothing.

No.

He never said

it.

You said it and he just

agreed.

That's crazy.

Okay.

Anyways.

Yeah.

They said, I'm willing to

make it part of my personality.

So if you see more kiwi gear, if you

want to send me kiwi

gear, eventually we

might have a PO box.

But that would be sick.

Anyways, we should probably end this
episode.

Yeah, we should.

Who wants to pray out?

I can pray us out.

Cool.

Yeah.

Quit.

Cool.

Thank you for joining us

for this episode

of Perfume Decay.

Okay.

Lord, I thank you for this

opportunity that you've given

to us

gather in your

name

over the internet,

over a podcast,

and

get the opportunity

to dwell

on your word,

to perfume our experience

with it,

and to take

joy in it.

We get to share in

that opportunity that you give

to us freely

being

followers

of your son.

And I pray that we do not take

that for granted.

I pray that we do not

take this opportunity

to make this podcast

for granted.

You've given us

this opportunity.

And I pray that we are

good stewards of it.

I pray that

even

if this goes nowhere

else but

within this

room,

I pray that we are edified and that

we ultimately

continue to

glorify you, continue

to grow closer to

you, to be

more like your son,

Jesus Christ, because

that is ultimately

ultimately...

what you've called

us to.

And I pray that we

go out the

rest of this week and

think about the things that

we've talked about.

I mean, the opportunity of

choice,

the

value that

that does provide

us, and how it points

to your love, how it points

to your goodness and your

grace and your mercy,

these are things that we should be

thinking about all

day long as they are

prevalent

in your word.

And I pray that as

we continue to make this podcast

that those

themes

stick in our

minds.

And I pray this all in your name.

Amen.

Good stuff.

See you all next time.

Next time.

Deuces.

How do I turn this off again?

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Creators and Guests

Host

Daniel Horne

Co-host of Perfume(D)ecay

Host

Mickael Wilson

Co-host of Perfume(D)ecay

Host

Steven Clemens

Co-host of Perfume(D)ecay

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