You said Peppermint Mocha? Peppermint White Mocha. Wot? Mocha? It's frickin' mint. That's kinda crazy, dude. Um... We're live, by the way. Yeah, we are. Classic. Dude. Yeah? Episode 13! Right? Peppermint... White Mocha! That's the title of this episode. Dude, Perfumed Decay! Episode 13. Um... We're here. We did it. We've been here. We've been here. For a while. For 13 episodes. For 13 episodes. Technically, like, 16. Yeah. All the, uh... 15, 16. Half-breeds. Half-breeds. Yeah. Episode 0. Episode 0. Good ol' Episode 0. Also, the, uh... The silent episode. Ah, yes. The, um... What we should do with that? Yeah. Do we still have it? No, I deleted it. What? You deleted it? I'm sorry. Why'd you delete it? Cause it was just... Us... On video. Dude, we could've done... Dude, we had a great opportunity with that. Why? We could've done... A voiceover. It sounds so difficult. Or we could've... We could've... You've been telling me that I work too hard. No, no. I'm not saying right now. I'm saying in the future. Or it could be like a bad lip-sync kind of video. That would be hilarious. Dude, we've been... We've been stockpiling Patreon content forever. We have. We've got so much. It's ridiculous. That would be a great Patreon opportunity. No, I think we should probably tell the audience, like, what we're officially doing now that we've been kind of unofficially doing. You know what I'm talking about? Sure. What we just did. What's that? The pre-show. Oh, the pre-show. Yeah. The pre-show show. Yeah. The pre-pod show. So what is that? It's just... How did it happen? Us getting ready for the episode. Which takes forever. Which takes forever. So it's basically the length of a regular episode. It's... I sure hope not. I think this last one was like an hour. I hope in the future that our setup is 30 minutes and that the pre-show show is just 30 minutes. That'd be nice. But this one was probably at least an hour, I would think. Yeah, yeah. But... Let me check that we're actually live. Yeah, we are. Cool. Sweet. That'd be good. We... Yeah. We're gonna have a meeting this next Thursday. Yeah, we are. And, you know, we're gonna keep improving things. Keep moving forward. We've been improving. And by we, I mean Daniel. No, no. And by Daniel, I mean we. The proverbial we. My favorite kind of we. Not the video game we. Also, this auto scene switching that we refused to talk about last time. Yeah. I do want to talk about it because it's tight. Okay. It's great now. Like, let us know if you're watching the video version of this podcast. If it seems weird. If it seems weird, but also if it's pretty tight. Because I think it's pretty tight. Jinx. Wow, that's kind of weird. Yep, that's our brain. I didn't know how to do that. Did it fine? No. I thought it was no. No, this is yes. Oh yeah, no, you're right. Yeah. No. No, it's pointing at the thing that you want to say no to and no. Yeah. Yeah. Anyways, if you know, you know, if you don't, well, now they know. Now they know. Well, now we know. Sure. We know. They know. We we before we get into our actual episode. What's how has the week been? The week's been a procession of seven, seven days. One, one after the other. Okay. Yep. Interesting. Yeah, it's usually a procession procession. Feel like you're using that word wrong, but is it? I don't know. They proceed. I like to make it seem like you're wrong. It's a procession. Like, hey, they come out one after another procession. Yeah, sure. That's what procession means, right? I don't know. Steven. What do you think? Steven is our dictionary. What? I should not be getting so much. Steven shenanigans section area section area. Sick. There we go. Steven. So this is the section area portion of our podcast. This is the inaugural episode. What is the definition of? Procession language of origin English. Do you want me to look it up? No, I want you to guess. Oh, give me your feelings. Tell us what feels right. In your heart. I think these prefix pro is is important. Hold on. Are you Steven? Are you this? I think we're all Steven. Are we all one? We are. Are we one with the universe? It's like I am grew, but I am no sack or I am Charlie Kirk. Oh, no. Yeah, I am dead. I am rip human. I am not Steven. How we doing on that? I am definition. I would just say it's one thing after another. Great. There we go. There it is folks. Beautiful. So how has your week been Daniel? My week has been a procession of I have toilet paper. I'm not afraid to use it. Interesting. That's a unique threat that I've never heard before. You're welcome. No, how is your week been? I'm stalling for time. I don't know. How do you not know? You lived it. That's my family. Like I have the goldfish memory. Oh my God. We've literally answer this question every week. I honestly didn't see it coming this time. Steven. How is your week? Well, I hold on. Why are you moving on? I know what I was. He has a goldfish memory. So late. What are we talking about? You're off the island. Steven, you want to go first? No, you can since Lord God almighty. He doesn't forget again. Answer the freaking question. My week has been pretty pretty sick, dude. Pretty tight. Yeah. Yeah. I mean a lot of vibe coding a lot of yeah, not not a ton of like late nights. Like I've had some psychotic breaks in weeks where I'm like staying up to like 3 or 4 a.m. Every single night not healthy. No, not not not not too healthy. So I've gotten the more decent rain on myself. So that's good. Nice works been good. Oh my company has a day off. Oh Friday. Yeah, every now and then there's like what they call a thank you day. So just like every employee gets a day off and that was this last Friday. I took advantage of a extra long weekend and took Monday off to nice. I've got a four-day weekend. Dang. Yeah, man. That's sweet. Yeah. Thank you. You're welcome. I think I'm confused but Thursday was great. Okay, we connected with a few more living souls. Yeah, and look at some of those souls were very lively. You could say oh and with that transitioning to you Michael. How was your week? I don't know what that has to do with me because you can take it off from there. You can this your jumping point. Oh, okay, because I'm sure that's part of your week because you were there too. I mean kind of I guess I don't know my week has been a normal week. There hasn't been too much going on. That's worth mentioning because I've been watching shows. Yeah playing video games not doing a whole lot. It's kind of nice feel like I've been trying to focus on a lot of things. Yeah, and I need to just not to bed. Yeah, kind of stressful. Yeah. Oh this week we did pickleball. We did do pickleball and you liked it and I was okay with it. You were okay with it, which is a step up from what? Which is a step up from not caring for it at all. I still don't care about it. But but people you care about care about it and you're good enough to be okay with it. Yeah, that's good. I mean I can get competitive playing it because I just want to destroy the one girl. We're not mentioning names. No got it. Okay being respectful people's privacy. Yeah, I will got something. We're really bad at yeah. No, we suck at that. Yeah hard. Uh-huh. So, um, yeah definitely want to because we've we've played ping-pong. Oh that one. Yeah, we should just come up with pseudonyms for people. Let's called let's call her Bailey. Okay. So yeah, Bailey and I and she beat me at ping-pong. You should have seen I destroyed people at ping-pong. Yes. This last Thursday didn't didn't you like what 10 people in a row? Yeah, and then she came in. She came in at the very end is last game and I mean to be fair. I was tired, but she played really well. So yeah, it's kind of hard to tell she's so good at everything. She's not really good, but I'm a sporty person. Yeah, and then she's a chef. Yeah, and then yeah, she's trying to hook us up for our Tennessee trip that I guess we're still trying to do. Yeah. Okay, why not? I mean, it's it's in Knoxville and it's going to be three three hours drive. But like would you rather do a three-hour drive or free stay? Well, we still have to do the three-hour drive no matter what. Well, yeah, if we're if we're getting the free stay then we have to do the three-hour drive. Yeah, but I'm saying we could get an uber or certain not an uber a place next to Knoxville. Oh, I see instead. Yeah, I drive as far and not get the free stay. Yeah. Also the I feel like the free stays hang out with Bailey and friends could be cool. It could be cool. Probably see that one girl her friend. That's right. Riley. It's probably not Riley, but we'll say it's Riley. We'll say it's Riley. Do you remember her name? I am trying to remember her name right now, dude. I've been trying to remember her name for months now months now. Yeah, it has not been months. It's been two weeks. No, no, no. I'm talking about the the girl that runs the merch and everything for I'm talking about Penny and Sparrow friend of Bailey. Oh, yeah, but yeah, no, no, no. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know you're talking about I can't remember her name either. Okay. What's what's Bailey's friends name pseudonym? I think Jennifer Jennifer. Yeah, how about Sally Ann? She said she really doesn't matter. We're gonna do Sally Ann Sally. And I told her that that was her nickname. Okay, she was cool with that. Cool, or she was being nice. She was probably being nice. Probably you kind of weird. I am very weird. I don't know why people put up with me. I don't know. I barely put up with myself. How do you can you if you put up with someone can you put down with them? Oh, it's a good question. Steven. What do you think not answering? Can you put it down for us? Dirty hot and dirty. Can you write it in pen Steven? How is your week been? We haven't gotten to see you as often. I know as you've been ditching us for work. Yeah, how's work been? Well gotten a few more days. Yeah, add to the schedule. So that's nice. I have a two days to work next week. So nice not Saturday, right? Oh, thank God. Nope. Never boy back last week. We needed you because the DSLR wasn't working. Yeah. Now we've got the view working because you showed up. Okay, you can't ever leave again. Oh, well actually we're going to change that chair and then bolt the chair to the ground and you're just going to stay there. It's just going to smell awful. I'm going to have leather straps. No, no, we'll get it. We'll hook up an IV put a little bedpan that you know transfers to the sewer system and but still that doesn't fix the smell. Good. Why don't we just strap him to the chair and we can put him into the shower. We'll put a tube around him and it'll be like a built-in shower. There'll be like a curtain, you know, goodness gracious. You're really awkward. My hands are like stuck right here. You're like trying to wash yourself. Your hands can still be free. You'll just be chained down. So by the chest. Yeah. Okay. So so by the legs by the chest, so he's got his hands. Yeah, but then I need to switch over to your side of the table. So you can't throw hands. Yeah. Okay. Well, no, no, he'll be in a tube. Oh, yeah. How would we hear him? It'd be like echo probably, you know, a little cut out. You can do a little hole the whole time. Yeah, but it's still kind of echo because some of his voice would bounce off go behind him and then bounce back out. Small problem. He doesn't talk that much. If he starts talking more than we'll have a problem, then maybe we'll consider taking out of the tube and we'll make it to where like part of it goes up. Part of it goes down. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. More headroom. Yeah, then you can breathe. Just be like, how do you like being in a fish tank? Steven? We'll fill it with water. Every so often. Not very nice. Is it my bath? It'll actually be a space where we do some human testing and we try to see if we can make him into a merman. Oh, yeah, sure. Yeah, yeah. Give him gills. I wouldn't feel guilty at all. Guilty. That's good. Thank you. Anyways, Steven. How was your week? How was your week? You got some more work days. Is there anything else exciting? Trying to still see if at another location, if I can get a management position. Nice. So hopefully not just a full time, but move up even. That'd be sick. But yeah, I thought that if I got on it and recontacted them to see if it was still available, that I thought that maybe that could have... Helped speed things up. But in turn, I found out that that position is filled right now. Now and I'm still waiting on their decision if they're gonna leave or stay or what's not so I'm just like That didn't really help me. What's what's the lever? It sounds like we need black ops and to help this other person We need to send in the squad to Help things along Some waterboarding. We'll put them in the in the toilet that and then we'll put them in the toilet to the tube Yeah, it's all it to turn them into a room in. Mm-hmm. Then we'll have them on the pod. See how they like it Yeah, and then you'll be a manager so you won't be able to be on the pot So we'll just mmm, we'll make them a little bit blind. Yeah, mostly blind. We'll Give them cataracts. Yeah. Yeah, I give someone cataracts. Can you buy surgery? Maybe you could like take the lenses how you can do anything with certain and then like put in foggy lenses like he's so screwed up I Think I think about it. I think I Think about the phrase that my sister's school peer Schoolmate, what do they call him? Anyway, someone from her school was like if If you do if you do psychedelics, you know, you can be whatever you want. I think I think It should be if you get surgery done, you can be whatever you want, but that's also true It is also any truth is true, but if you wait wait, what if the doctor does psychedelic enough and You get surgery done if the doctor's a psychedelics. Yeah, then you can really be whatever you want The doctor could have been anything the doctor to doctoring, you know, okay, that's fair So if you do psychedelics and then you have surgery done then you can be whatever you've been you're a multi-dimensional being I'm down. Yeah, we'll start a certain new Psychedelics podcast we'll start a new podcast called psychedelics and divorce What about the NC divorce divorce from reality, yes, yeah from reality Gravity am I right boom there goes grab. Yeah. Anyways, this has been kind of creativity mushrooms that you take Look Eminem rice and billions. Um He co-writes for the show that concludes our intro intro our Check-in about us. This is our check-in our listen to us because we're we feel important and we need to inflate our ego Sure, is that what that is? I think that the subtitle I think we talked about that I think there's more listen to the things that we have to say because we are actually saying nothing here Hmm, but we're making it seem like it is something that was the sub subtitle. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah It was like column 695. Mm-hmm. We've got a lot of section a we need to tighten that up a little bit first be yeah Subtext, I think we work on podcasts more than we actually read our Bible. We do the problem. Yeah We don't work on that. We've been doing Another check-in for the team for the squad the squad squad check-in. So you won't I've done really bad agent reading Genesis reading proverbs I mean, yeah Which we said we were gonna do more of mm-hmm and So to be fair Steven You read the entire Book, basically, right? Yeah. Did you finish? Yeah, that's nuts So Stevens out of what we just but he's also been rereading over and over and over and over again No, no, just I've moved on to Romans and I'm like Look at me cussing and then encouraging someone to read in the Bible Um Yeah, so We got to do that. Yeah, we do especially because Proverbs has been really Edifying. Yeah, and just to be real for a moment Yesterday I was thinking about this exact thing. Mm-hmm, and I was listening to I think it was our third episode morality and I'm like listening to something I said and I'm thinking this is Deep mm-hmm, and I'm not even sure what I'm saying. There is true. Mm-hmm And if you ask me now, I don't know if I'd be able to tell you with confidence What I just said or even remember what I just said there. Am I losing touch? Am I? Becoming too much part of the world, you know, like it do I am I So far out of the Bible that I no longer have the ability to to remember all those Important things just offhand Anymore, I mean in one thing turning. Well in one sense the Bible says to take every thought captive, right? so hard in and but but innocent, but you've also Taken that thought captive, right? What do you mean? Because you're not letting it run rampant You're you the thought that you just had of am I losing touch am I whatever you're not taking that and then just Disappearing from reality and letting that thing run your reality. Oh, you know like like I'm not letting it Like spiral. Yeah into something unhelpful. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, because otherwise you wouldn't be thinking about it That's metacognition. You're you're thinking about thinking that thinking And I have noticed the spirits been working on my heart a lot My heart's feeling the right things towards sin sure now again, which is crazy. It's been a while Like I feel a horrid disgust or at least leaning that direction now instead of thinking to myself like what a wonderful world and Sorry Great job cracking myself up what a wonderful world and the The the sinful things like they are they like I yearn for them. Yeah, I used to do that even as a Christian sometimes and I was thinking about that last night and I'm Yearning for the opposite now, which is great. So the Holy Spirit's been working on that but also the spirits been working on What we're just talking about as far as like Paul talks about there's a Godly Remorse Godly guilt, I believe hmm that leads to repentance. Mm-hmm. And then there's a worldly guilt that leads to Sorrow probably nothing good. Yeah, I forget the exact wording but nothing good. Mm-hmm and my Previous remorse and guilt and shame has led to nothing good and now there's That that change happening in both my heart towards them but also the the feeling of Guilt turning me back to God rather than away from God being mad at God Blaspheming him. Yeah, like I Mean running Being my own God worshiping other things whatever it is. Yeah, and instead it's causing me to Fall to my knees before him, which is crazy So, I mean I've been looking to have a deeper more meaningful relationship with God forever and I had I've always felt like or not always but a lot of the times I've Under the surface felt like it's surface level with them. Sure. It's always been that way and Like I'm okay with that because maybe I'm just young and like I just need more experience any more time to develop the relationship but after a while, I'm like guy we've been at this forever like if you were like a Real friend in real life. I'd probably be moving on at this point. Mm-hmm. I was what's up and I think Possibly I'm still on the journey here, but possibly I'm I'm realizing that I should have been real like that from day one Because I mean God could say the same to me in the past like I Can't be friends with you if you're not gonna be real with me Yeah, well and that's what I was gonna point to as well as like it sounds like you're being more honest yeah, and I mean I I Look at your behavior and I think about your your behavior before and see see Well, what I see is you not trying to hide Anything Or as much as before as yeah, well cuz and this is true for Pretty much every Christian that grows up in the church. Like oh, I'm not trying to be mr. Perfect. Yeah, okay, and And it's like I mean was I trying to do that before I got kicked out? Probably and not in a intentional like this is like you weren't paying attention as much back then You weren't paying attention this much sure you can't remember if I was doing no no, it's it's more of like your behavior was fine There wasn't anything off. There wasn't anything weird. It wasn't like oh, he's Just lying to everybody or whatever. But the other thing that I was gonna point to Was yes The Bible says take every thought captive But it says it take every thought captive because the heart is deceitful above and wicked above all things. Yeah, who could know it? And and that question is posed because only God can know it Yeah, I've always wondered and we we can't we can't know it We can't know the depths of our own heart. And so when we go and do Like Paul says I do what I don't want to do. Mm-hmm, right? Mm-hmm, and that's because We have to take every thought captive because we don't know our own heart. We don't know. I Mean it's a thing about last week when we were talking about The depths of our DNA Right and and our cells and the things that get stored there and and where they come from and why it's there and blah blah Blah like and that that gets passed on and we don't even know the depths of that So how on earth can we know from moment to moment unless we take every thought captive in that moment? How are we gonna know right what what what's gonna come next, you know as much as we desire to seek What is good we can't we really can't yeah and and God knows that and that's why He tells us that he's in control. That's why he tells us that our heart is deceitfully wicked even though with so It it is our heart that is driving us. Yeah, and You know, it's why he also says that he wants us to conform to the image of Christ And be like his son because and why we can't do it alone Yeah, my we can't do you started a good work in us is faithful to What is it faithful to? Continue it. Yeah finish it And I mean, that's why we have the Holy Spirit. That's why we have the Word of God And and so I mean, yeah, it's it I'm I'm struggling as well in that. I'm not in the word Also having this weird like there's a change of pace that's happening in life right now and it feels Greatly tied to the temperature outside. Oh interesting. Uh, it's cuz it's got really hot Well, it's it's it's almost like the idea of when things are cold things slow down and when things are hot That means that there's energy and so I go outside and I feel this sense of energy and this is really weird Okay, I don't and there's almost a sense of like overwhelm going on Even though the same things are happening But I've also stepped back from writing my book and working on the game because I'm trying to I guess recalibrate into that New sense because I know that I'm prone to getting depressed and then falling deeper into sin Whatever. So yeah to trying to not have that heard that behavior. Yeah somehow but Don't talk about that after huh, you don't talk about that after I mean we can deeper But well, I'm saying that because you don't have to you shouldn't have to share like your deepest darkest things on this podcast, right? but also like My deepest darkest things aren't all that terrible, but but also I I probably would stop you Yeah, because Both of us have problem with oversharing. Yeah, but no what I'm what I'm trying to say is I'm not I'm not discouraged and I don't think you should be discouraged either. Hmm because It is part of the process so you say that you're concerned that you're out of touch But no, it's a concern. Yeah. Yeah, but why should I not be concerned? I'm not saying that I'm not I'm not saying that you shouldn't be concerned But I don't think you should be concerned in a and discouraged. Yeah, okay It should be a check engine light not a See this you're a bad Christian. Yeah, are you even a Christian? Yeah. Yeah, I see your point Yeah, cuz so I feel like God's maybe given you a gift of faith Which is odd to hear I'm sure Or is it not? I don't know even so so when you And it might be a recent gift that he gave you when he sort of killed your depression Where no matter what comes at you it? Doesn't phase you too much because you know the the scope of reality that God has placed you in Right. I mean I've talked about it before but it's I Don't know if I would call it faith. That's because because faith it's believing that God is Who he says he is. Um And acting that way. Yeah, but it's It's more it's more optimism and utilizing knowledge to Inform my speech when you say knowledge a lot of people read the Bible and they they hear God Talk about his own character. Yeah, but they don't believe him. We're saying to you That's a matter of fact. That's a matter of yeah information, which is knowledge to you Yeah, that's that's the faith that i'm talking about the moment the moment that it becomes faith is when I actually believe it And I don't saying you don't I don't always believe it. Yeah, i'm saying i'm saying in this moment Sure, I do. I do definitely believe it. Yeah, and I and I am more optimistic, but i've always had The I guess gift as you're saying to To See reality meaning knowing what what's really going on and To the best of your knowledge. Yeah, the goodness that is coming from it. Yeah, um because i've always had this whatever sense of awareness, but knowledge and Faith aren't You need the knowledge to know what it is that you have faith in but you don't But just because you have that knowledge doesn't mean you have the faith yeah, because you need to hear the gospel in order to yeah believe but Just hearing the gospel isn't going to make you believe make you believe right? so knowing the truth and believing the truth is two different things, I mean, uh, jesus says uh even the demons, uh What is it even the demons Believe in god know that god is another god exists exists. Yeah, and god is is god. Mm-hmm but Do you not believe or they they they even the the demons, uh fear god, but they do not. Um, They're not On his side. They don't believe they don't have the ability to believe I don't know we're wandering into like yeah super like uh Gray area stuff here and i'm totally misquoting him, but That's so funny, I mean I I did a pot, uh I put I did a post I wrote a post on facebook about gray areas. Oh, yeah um because of how Just like with the technology thing and the transfer transfer of information so it's funny about creators, but um We should get into the episode. Yeah, unless steven, uh, can you relate to any of that or thoughts or whatever? Can't relate to any of it. I can't really I mean for one I don't overshare a lot. So that's fair. Well, once you get this guy hardly share it all He won't shut up But uh as far as like, um Gift of faith like knowing the truth and not questioning it. Um, or like believing what god says and it uh uh Becoming like functional truth in your life. Like is that something that you struggle with or is that something that That god has given you that that is a little bit easier for you Some things I go with some things I don't necessarily And I do question them um mainly just like decisions and uh Yeah or just decisions that have been placed in front of me like why is this this way and why is it that I have these two choices and They both have major downsides if I go with either one. Yeah, just like Picking the worst the best of the two evils. Yeah um, so It's like why does god let that happen kind of thing? Yeah a little bit. Um and then like with some decision making i'm just like Oh, well, I don't like it, but it's the right thing to do I just go with it. Yeah That's discipline. That's good though. That could be one of your gifts. It's like you you do what you don't want to do because You've been commanded to do it I guess like a Gift of obedience. Well, it's something I do not have it's it's I mean with I don't know Not necessarily Because if you're indifferent about it Oh to obey with a willing heart Is different than to obey with uh resentment well to to obey and Like if it doesn't mean anything to you Then that'd be different but if you're doing it because you're choosing to be faithful that's not indifference that's choosing to be faithful and yes, you may not like it, but whereas the alternative is i'm doing this just because I know that it's right in which case that is So it's not necessarily character At that point. Yeah, it's just rolling with emotions for what uh, whatever other reason you might have Well because like I mean there's that there's that fine balance like my parents always talk about how you need to Desire it or else it doesn't mean anything But also there's a sense of you need if you know, what is good you need to do it and that either comes from a place of faith desire or it comes from a place of You don't really care and if you don't really care then it doesn't really matter and you do it anyways Then you care about something else. Yeah, you're putting something else before god. Yeah, there's some Ulterior motive. What do you think? What do you what's your motive when you don't want to do something but you do it? Anyways, a lot of the times it's the end goal necessarily. So um With like moving in together. Let's say yeah I don't want to get another job, but For one I want to get out of my parents house That's one thing. Yeah, but the hard part is is that since I don't want to get another job i'll be stuck with uh Low income. Yeah uh, not a whole lot of um freedom basically uh and I don't have the space And the ability to do the things that I want necessarily if you move out If I don't move if you don't move, okay. Yeah, got it. So in turn since I don't want to um Get another job it has to happen and so that's where I basically push myself to So so what about questions of morality though, so there's there's something that you Uh know is Is something that you should do? Um, and you don't want to do it, but you do it Anyways, can you think of an instance of that? You don't have to talk about it. But once you got it, let me know Like reading your bible Opening a door for someone I don't know about that It's not really a moral thing sharing the gospel with someone. So if you know something is Uh good to do and you don't do it that for you is a sin So if you know, you should open that door for that that person who's walking towards the door and you're already there And you don't do it. You let that door close on their face that for you is a sin It depends no, there's no room for that according to paul and Word of god, but is it is it at the micro level entirely? Yeah Could be I think that's why paul mentioned that we should cover that uh Some other time you want to note that down so we don't forget I should stop doing that. I'll I'll ask next time. Can you note that down? Please poor favor. Grazie. Okay. Um, so a moral Decision, uh that you didn't want to do you did it. Anyways, why I don't just because I was just like, yeah, I got nothing better to do. So but um I guess I thought it was right. So I just did it anyways Michael what do you think of that? Um That's called indifference, which is which means you don't care. No, I know but is that right wrong? Uh, God doesn't that's that's the in between. That's right. That's the gray. That's the Lukewarm, it's I don't care Even though he I don't I know that it's good, but it doesn't really matter to me that it's good it's what i'm gonna do the good but i'm gonna do it that's still lukewarm because It's there that's nuts you're saying that a good person who does good things, uh, knowing that it's the right thing to do um believing in god, um knowing that god has set these moral Boundaries in place and defined all these right and good things to do and has planned all those things for you to do But you could care either way either way. Yeah You could care less either way, but you do the right thing. Anyways just because That is morally like you're You're the one that god talks about as lukewarm. Well, it's either you care you don't care. Yeah And if you don't care Then you're not actually doing it for god Right, you're doing it For literally any other reason Because if if you think to yourself, oh i'm gonna do this for god Then you're doing it for god. It's like a favor. Yeah, it's like a gift and and if because you have to do it Knowing what is good, right? And doing it for god Because you know that is good Rather than I know this is good I'm just kind of doing it Because I know that it's good, but i'm not like like we're what That's kind of what the world does so this is a good thing, but i'm doing this Just because I know right that it's good to do. So a lot of us are easily people pleasers. Yeah And I'm, i'm thinking that from what you were saying like we should Reframe ourselves as god pleasers. Yeah, um, just like you know If it's not it's not if it's not for god, it's not it's it's hardly even good if it's not for god It's for not yeah, because If if god is the only good only source of good Long-lasting good with no downsides. Yeah, then then anything that he says that is good. Why is it good? It's good because he is in it right if he's not in it Then it's not good. Yeah, right Good root work being god and that's that and that's not to say that the good work Isn't being used for his purposes, but it means that your heart isn't in it And he wants you to align your heart, right? Yeah, it's kind of like um The other day I think it was last week when we recorded 12, um, your heart wasn't really in it. Yeah before and that made me feel bad because i'm like You feel obligated to do this with me like he doesn't even want to be here kind of makes me not want to be here um But we made a commitment outside of ourselves so that when those moments do happen We still do it and that that's which is that relational agreement. That's where it gets a little more Nuanced for sure. Yeah, because there there's a sense of I know this is good I know that this is for god that he is calling me to this thing. And so it it's I I think a lot of it is the acknowledgement of god not not feeling it like oh i'm i'm Emboldened i'm i'm I feel passionate about this thing. So it's like pouring it out for a homie Like pouring one out for the homie. Sure. It's like, uh, buying flowers for your girlfriend It's like getting a card for uh your mom On mother's day. Yeah, um, you don't necessarily feel it but you know you do it because you You want that relationship with them? Yeah, um, you do it because you know that they Would be pleased by it. Yeah, and you um You care about that person and so Which is which is to be indifferent about the moral choice, but you do it anyways because it's like giving god flowers yeah, so it's it Which makes sense because he describes, uh, good sacrifices in the old testament as a sweet aroma whereas those that just did it out of obligation, which is Worse than not doing it at all. Yeah, there's definitely a reference for that. I just can't remember. Yeah um I mean lukewarm idea, right? Anyways, this is not the topic This isn't the topic but this this is great. I like I like this. Um, even though oh, we're not too bad 50 minutes on um I I really think like our check-ins should be deeper if we can if we want to um, and I think you were talking about that a month ago, so It's just hard to do that naturally without coming off as like Like we just talked about like genuine like we want to do this Because we want to please god and we want to like we want our heart to be in it Otherwise you the audience like you're going to be able to tell yeah that well You don't want to do this, but we're just doing this to check a box. We're doing this to present uh A brand image or whatever. Mm-hmm. Like I don't want that to be the podcast and I don't ever really want that In any sense, yeah, and I was kind of feeling that with uh, the last trailer that I did it almost became A brand image that I wanted to do Like I wanted people to see the podcast a certain way like artsy or whatever And that's not what I want. Yeah the podcast I want this to be Real and to have heart and whatever that looks like. Yeah, that's what it looks like Which was the initial idea for the first trailer and that's why it was so much better in the second Yeah, well I and and again a lot of that is just being raw and honest and not you know, i'm A lot of what i'm trying to do is keep things in certain bounds so that we can Be consistent But it's also I have to think about the fact that yes, we're trying to be consistent, but we're also trying to be raw and honest and and so It's it's thinking of it as i'm doing what i'm doing to begin able to create more opportunity for that rather than have it be purely for a polished podcast, a polished experience for the benefit of everybody's time and whatever. It can't just be about using everybody's time wisely, but it has to be, okay, is this happening naturally? If this is happening naturally, how is it happening naturally? Why is it happening naturally? What things are making that possible and how can we negate all the things that are holding it back, right? We were talking about last episode, how do we make it as easy as possible? Yeah. And so, yeah, so it's making it as easy as possible while keeping in mind that we're not making it easy to just get it done with. We're making it easy so that when we jump in... When our heart is there. It just flows out and we don't have to think about a whole lot. There's nothing else that we're thinking about. It's just we jump in, we do the podcast because we've had more time to think about what it is that God wants us to do in the podcast rather than doing the podcast. Does that make sense? It does, and I think this was a good use of time. Yeah. No, absolutely. Even though we're almost an hour in, we haven't even cracked the Bible open. Even though we have referenced the Bible a ton. And you have a physical Bible. I have a physical Bible. Snaps from Michael. I know. Crazy. Shoot. Holier than me, for sure. I don't know about that. But we probably should get into it. Yeah, we should. What are we reading today? We are reading... Before we get into it, actually... Oh, we gotta pray. Someone wanna pray for us. Yeah. I'll take it. Okay. Yeah. All right. Dear God, thank you for this day. Thank you for my friends and for the audience. Whoever's listening, God, would you be with them? Would you bless them? Would you help them to understand your word alongside us today? And God, would you shut our mouths if we're gonna say anything that goes against what is right, what is true, and what is exactly what you want us to say? Would you help us to dig into the word in a way that proves to people that are getting into it the first time that you don't have to be a scholar, you don't have to be even good at reading. There's things that you can see in your word that are just mind-bending and just beautiful if you look just a layer deeper behind the words that you've put into this Bible that you've written to us. Yeah, God, would you please help us to see what you want us to see today? And would you work on our hearts and change our minds, God? Amen. Amen. Funny enough, I think that the section that we're in actually has to do with what we're talking about in some sort of way. But before we get into that... Oh, maybe. We're good at tying things together. Yeah. I'll read the section that we're in, which is... Genesis 4. Yeah, Genesis 4, starting in verse 23 through 24. Context, Cain had a son, started the first city. Enoch. Yeah, Enoch. Enoch was born to Ired. Ired fathered Mahujel, and Mahujel fathered Methushel, and Methushel fathered Lamech. Lamech had two wives, and his sons from those two wives did or fathered multiple different things. One was tents and livestock, one was the playing of the lyre and the pipe, and the other was forger of instruments of bronze and iron. And so, that's where we left off last time talking about that. And at some point, I guess, Lamech does something wrong, and we're about to see his outcry as a result of that. Right. So, this is what he says. Lamech said to his wives, Ada and Zillah, hear my voice, you wives of Lamech. Listen to what I have to say, to what I say. I have killed a man for wounding me, a young man for striking me. If Cain's revenge is sevenfold, then Lamech's is 77-fold. And it's just this weird outtake out of everything else. I mean, we know about Cain. We know Lamech is from the line of Cain. It seems like four generations, five generations later, Cain is probably still around. My assumption is that he's wandering around. But Lamech has killed someone for wounding him, and he has basically just cursed himself. Yeah, totally unnecessarily. I mean, is it unnecessary? I would think so. Why would you bring a curse down upon yourself that your great-grandfather didn't even want in the first place? So, when you do something that you know is grievous, and you have a deep sense of guilt, you condemn yourself. Oh, sorry. Are you saying that he's leaning into it? I'm saying he understands the weight of what he has done. Lamech? Lamech. Okay. Um, maybe not in the wife department, but he knows he did something horribly evil, and there is some sense of the morality behind it. And again, we've speculated to some degree that Cain's line probably isn't the most moral. Seth's line ends up seeming to be more on the moral side, more on the godly side. But Lamech still has some idea that God cursed Cain for murdering his brother, and now he has gone and murdered someone for wounding him. And I wonder if maybe it's not even – it sounds like it's not even something that is – like, it wasn't a deep, grievous offense that came upon him. He was just wounded. He was like, I'm going to just kill this person. Yeah. And maybe he just saw red. Like, I think about – one of my old bosses, he was working as a custodian at a school with his dad. This kid that's a bully throws a rock at him, he sees red, and he goes, pummels the kid, like, darn near to death. And he's a big, strong dude, and he's probably always been that way. And, you know, I imagine that that might have been how it was with Lamech. Granted, we don't have any context, but he feels bad about it. Now, if he was at war, or if he was fighting for his life, he just cursed himself. No, no, no. I think he's bragging here. What? Yeah. Listen to what I have to say. I've killed a man for wounding me, and a young man for striking me. If Cain's revenge is sevenfold, then Lamech's is 77-fold. You don't think that's boasting? The revenge is not his revenge. It is that he is going to be killed. No, I think it's him laughing, him mocking God. He's like, look, I don't care about what God has to say so much that I'm just going to kill people for looking at me wrong. I don't care that it's supposed to be an eye for an eye, and this guy just wounded me. I'm going to take his life. Then this young man slapped me on the cheek. I slit his throat. You know what? Screw you, God. I don't even care if you curse me 70 times seven times. If anyone kills Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. So he feels guilty about this. Wait, wait, wait, hold on. What you just said there, say it again. What was the curse against Cain? Sorry, the protect. Let's go back. The Lord said to Cain, where is Abel your brother? This is verse 9 of chapter 4. He said, I do not know. Am I my brother's keeper? And the Lord said, what have you done? The voice of your brother's blood is crying to me from the ground. Now you are cursed from the ground, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hand. When you work the ground, it shall no longer yield to use its strength. You shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth. Cain said to the Lord, my punishment is greater than I can bear. Behold, you have driven me today away from the ground, and from your face I shall be hidden. I shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me. Then the Lord said to him, not so. If anyone kills Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord put a mark on Cain, lest anyone who found him should attack him. So, in some sense, perhaps, because then it says, if Cain's revenge is sevenfold, then Lamech's is seventy-sevenfold. Petey- Which, by the way, Lamech doesn't quite understand that it's not Cain's revenge, it's God's. Jared- Well, no, no, no. He's saying, vengeance will be taken on the person that kills Cain. Petey- Mm-hmm. Jared- So, vengeance is revenge. So- Petey- Yeah, but God says, vengeance is mine. Jared- Right. Petey- So, I assume God's talking about God himself will take vengeance on whoever kills him. Jared- Yes. Petey- Seven times that. Jared- Yes. Petey- And so, Lamech here is saying, if God's revenge for Cain is sevenfold, my revenge to anybody who wishes to harm me is seventyfold. And this is why I point to guilt. Jared- Really? Petey- Because if it was in a fit of rage and he feels bad about it, he's just killed somebody and he didn't want to kill them. Jared- Right. Petey- So, he feels guilty for it, and so he says, if anybody tries to kill me now, may their guilt be seventy-sevenfold. Cain shows his guilt by saying, my punishment is greater than I can bear. Behold, you have driven me today away from the ground, and from your face I shall be hidden. I shall be a fugitive and a wanderer, and whoever finds me will kill me. So, he feels- Jared- I've never heard it the way that you're describing it. Petey- In the moment that Cain realizes that his guilt, or that his punishment- Jared- Consequences. Petey- Is far greater than he can bear, he says, I am driven from the ground. I'm driven from the face of God, and whoever finds me will kill me. Because he wants to die because he feels guilty now for what he has done. Jared- And God's like, guess what? I'm going to protect you. Petey- Right. Jared- Shoot, I never thought about that. Petey- So, he's now a wanderer. Anybody finds him, he wants to die. He wants them to kill him. Jared- He's like, kill me, please. Petey- Yes, but Lamech knows the curse of Cain. Jared- Yeah. Petey- He knows what will happen if someone goes and kills Cain, and he's saying- Jared- What I've done is ten times worse. Petey- What I've done is ten times worse. He's killed a stranger. Well, but, like, Cain killed his brother. Jared- No. Petey- That's worse than killing a stranger. Jared- I think he's thinking of it more of he killed somebody, and he didn't- Petey- For absolutely no reason. Jared- Yeah, they wounded me. Petey- Maybe his pride, even. Jared- And this is why I'm also pointing to guilt, because they wounded him, and he's crying out, saying, if anybody tries to kill me, you know, it should be worse for them, because what he has done, he feels awful about. I mean, he knows that Cain killed his brother, which is awful. Petey- To be fair, we can read any emotion into this, because he's not very clear about his emotions. Jared- Yeah. Petey- So we could say he's either boasting, like, he's arrogant, he's prideful, or we could say that he's remorseful, he's full of shame, like... Jared- Yeah. Petey- You can see it either way. Jared- In some sense, like... Petey- Which one makes more sense? Jared- If he wanted to die because he felt so bad about what he wanted to do, he would respond the way that Cain did, because Cain said, I will be a wanderer, I'm thrown out, I'm hidden from your face, I'm hidden from the ground, and now I'm a wanderer, and whoever finds me will kill me. And God's even further punishment is, no, they will not kill you, your life will be protected. So, for him to die, it's either natural causes or he kills himself, right? For Lamech, he didn't respond with, I want to die because whatever punishment is too awful for me, we don't even know the punishment necessarily, but he says that... Because remember, they're living hundreds of years, right? And so, he has to deal with this idea that he killed somebody for the rest of his life. Petey- Yeah. Jared- And so, I'm reading... Petey- That's interesting, because that makes more sense with the previous verses talking about his family and how they're all very successful and fathers of these great industries. And then he has this section where he talks about how he's killed two people. It's always seemed a little bit out of place, but maybe it's there to frame it. Also, I liked your argument of Cain was maybe not ashamed, but he was fearful of God's consequences. Um, he was afraid of the consequences of his sin and maybe the guilt and shame that you naturally feel from that um Either way, they're not remorseful that they sinned against god and that they killed people. They're remorseful of the consequences itself And that god is Making the consequences worse by letting them live uh through every single Horrible moment of the rest of their lives So And that begs the question so he's taking the the side of what god said in response to cain's self-curse if you will and he's saying god said Essentially god said that cain's revenge is sevenfold i'm saying I'm, i'm bringing it upon myself that whoever kills me 77 fold 11 times. Is it 77? Yeah. Yeah, so 11 times not dead. Mm-hmm So it's very shameful. So it's it's either well, and and so i've always thought this is boasting And him mocking god i've heard that so many different times. I don't think i've ever heard that he's Feeling guilty here. Hmm, um remorseful, but if he was boasting wouldn't he Say this to more people than his two wives. Uh, His wives are the most important right people but he would like they already I guess it depends on their relationship. But usually like your wife is the closest person that you know. Yeah, and they um Like you don't need to boast to them. You don't need to build yourself up to them Like they're they're already like they already care about you when you're boasting and you're you're like Building yourself up. You're usually trying to get attention Um and build your reputation and get people to care about you that don't care. Um So wouldn't he be out in the streets like talking about us we're like Like trying to start rumors that get spread everything right, I mean we don't he's like a uh, uh, uh, Um, don't mess with me. Yeah mob boss kind of guy, right? That kind of reputation but yeah, I mean there's a lot obviously there's a lot of details Why would he share it with his wife? Yeah, or in this case wives? when When I do something that's shameful what I want to know Uh near immediately is do the people I care about Still care about me. Yeah, even though they know That I thought i've done this horrible thing. Mm-hmm. So it makes even more sense that the bible mentions Uh ada and zilla his entire family, uh how successful they are um, and then his blender is framing it as 11 times worse. Um, and that he only told his wife Like maybe no one knows about this these two murders. Yeah. Well, and and there's also That's nuts. I've never thought the way that i'm i'm kind of looking at it as he doesn't want to be killed like you said He has a from his perspective. He probably has a fantastic family that fathered incredible things, right? um and I mean, he's selling his wives and so I mean, he's so cool that he's got two wives Uh, I don't know He's he's stupid. Yeah, but like if you Imagine trying to get one wife nowadays like to get a girlfriend whatever right that process you have to be You have to get it. Yeah, you have to be incredible enough to get the intention of attention of one That's one incredibly completely different time though. I'm i'm looking at it more from the perspective of he doesn't Anyways, I was I mean this is the argument that he's got a very successful life. Yeah Um, I could be wrong about the whole cultural Yeah idea of uh I think that it's still selfish more swag. Yeah I think it's still selfish what he's saying because he doesn't want to die But I don't think that it would be boasting. Oh, this is how it ties in To our earlier conversation. Yeah, okay. Um keep going but before we Get into the connection. Um, he also says he's killed a man for wounding him a young man for striking him If we're thinking of it in the context of these people are living hundreds of years. Oh He's just ended the life of A young fry a person that could live hundreds of years. Yeah, and You know, we're four generations five generations past kane Like he basically killed a million people. Yeah, he killed A whole line the way the weight of that is huge and it's and it's a man Yeah, also and and in this in this time they protect. Yeah someone who can provide. Yeah, so Kill all these Dangerous animals. Yeah, like nowadays we think australia is dangerous Back then one continent. There was no separation all the animals that were in australia were on the entire continent maybe In their own regions and shirements, but still accessible. Yeah, and we think australia's animals are dangerous like pre-flood like even if you're an evolutionist you look at all the Uh the fossils and uh You know the false record like those animals are nuts. Yeah imagine those being around like you have to be I mean even if making room for people who believe in evolution like even if you Were a man back then with those animals around I guess evolutionists wouldn't believe those animals are around in that time period but But You can give it to me that there's more dangerous animals around as in the neanderthal sure if we're going that direction Yeah, I believe that all those animals dinosaurs etc were around when when man was around because the bible says so and Imagine the danger and he just killed someone who could have been a warrior who protected the city Yeah, so he himself is the beast. Yeah. Well and and and in that Same idea having an heir. He killed someone's son. Yeah, right having an heir is The most important thing and he probably knows that that father probably knows him probably yeah um, so this isn't like Lamech at the very at the very least knows how grievous this really is Oh, you you know what? It might have been like he killed the son And then his dad like tried to kill him Hmm. No, i'm just That would be crazy, right? Um, why there's a young man and uh, and uh, just a man, right? Maybe it's a single event And he comes home and he's like washing the blood off and he's like wives. I could tell you something Yeah, you better sit down like we know you're washing blood off your hands Yeah Uh, you think you're a stand-up guy you married? both of us That's crazy, it's like you're the first man to marry two women um Sorry, no three way off. Yeah, I don't know any other Well, you were going a direction with that. Um, and I was like, let's tie it in to that first conversation You said before that let me finish this up. Yeah, do you remember? Do you know do you remember what you were thinking in that? Yeah, why do you need time to remember? No, I want to hear what you think so I think it ties back because um His remorse, uh is not uh genuine his remorse is because of the consequences, uh instead of the uh evil, uh that he's committed against these people against uh, These these families against the people that feel the way of the consequences of his sin. Uh, and uh, ultimately The sin that he's committed against god Like that's not his source of guilt. Yeah, and that ties back to if the source of your If the motivation behind you doing something, right? Isn't right then what you're doing is not right. Yeah. Well, and we'll see later Um when someone That fears god They invoke the name of god We don't see anything like that. Mm-hmm Um, we see that in the next verse next few verses, right? Um, well we we see that last sentence. Yeah that later People begin to call upon the name of the lord. Yep people began to so so it's almost as though Yahweh Lamex curse is Due to the information that there is a god who cursed cain um Who put a punishment on cain? He knows about that and he knows that There's a protection behind that He doesn't invoke the name of god, which means maybe perhaps he is throwing out the importance of god in that equation and so He he may feel guilty He may have a lot on the line, but that doesn't mean necessarily that he isn't being selfish in this in this thing, he just knows that there is some force that is going to Or that could curse him further that there could be a greater punishment put on him In which he dies and he does not want to die Yeah, his guilt isn't Real. Yeah, it's the kind of guilt that doesn't lead to recontents. Yeah crazy, dude. I feel like we can relate stuff to anything like Christians are time travelers. I was like make that true and we did um But that kind of proves the craziest way. Yeah Yeah, but that kind of proves that the heart is deceitful above all things we can take anything and whether it's good or bad and Whatever motivation it is We can make it true to ourselves. Yeah, even if it's completely untrue because i'm sure we're Speculating here and we're talking about things that might prove in the future Uh completely wrong, I mean When i'm editing these podcasts, I come across stuff like that all the time. I'm like, oh my gosh, I sound like a complete idiot Like that's so obviously wrong. Why did I say that and I was like I should take that out But no i'm i'm leaving that kind of stuff in because shows we uh Are in our heart fallible? Our hearts. Yeah Deceitful Above all things. Yeah, and it's not that I want to deceive uh Our audience or anything. It's that I want them to see that like you said, we're fallible. Well, and and and also that there's a journey that I think is important for The audience to see and know because it's not just a journey of like Oh, we're trying to clean up the podcast and make things easier and faster and and and sound better and blah blah. It's a journey of us Who? Are reading the bible are struggling through life reading the bible on our own normal Are yeah, we're just we're normal people doing normal people things living normal people lives Just letting you guys take a peek at our bible study. Yeah It it's it's a it's a it's a sense of gray vulnerability. Yeah, and Uh, but it's but it's and then also just showing showing up to homies. Yeah, and yeah uh talking about whatever we want to talk about yeah, whatever it's Usually the bible but and in in that same vein of of what you're saying, you know, the heart is deceitful and wicked um Above all else And we can we you know We are showing that we can turn everything And make it seem a certain way wordsmiths, right? But also we got wonky words As jason says wonky words wonky words. Um, but we also Turn it back right we we Because because I mean every thought captive well, we we acknowledge What it is that we're talking about because I mean we say it's a lot of speculation It's a lot of us just trying to figure out what's going on um, and you know using our own knowledge and Limited knowledge and understanding. I mean asterisk for the audience. This is not What the bible says yeah, we're saying is an interpretation yeah and interpretation doesn't mean fact, yeah That was weird, uh, but in that same vein, uh Kind of there's something that you said earlier you said, um Um Crud oh, yeah in that in that same vein, you know It comes back to why are we doing it? Right? Why are we doing anything? um And if it's not for god then we shouldn't be If it's if it's not for god god doesn't want it. Yeah It's like it's like someone does something for you And you know that they don't want to do it for you they're just doing it because They feel like they should yeah, like you don't want that like you don't want to be a burden on anybody Yeah, like you don't want to well, and and it but Generally that also comes with an idea of i'm i'm just kind of doing it and i'm not really taking care to do It the way that it should be done right and and uh should as in a good relationship should be done so i'm gonna Harken back to cain and abel. You love that word I do I like language. Um, but cain and abel Why was abel favored over cain because he was able to get things done there abel funny but What he was like funny sometimes what he was offering Was correct. Yeah, right, but it wasn't the offering itself. That was correct It wasn't the offering itself that was correct But Abel had the understanding, same as Cain, that it was meant to be a certain thing, it was meant to be the firstfruits, it was meant to be the most, the highest, the number one. For a heart reason. For a heart reason. Not a physical reason, not God needed that. Right, but Cain, he was giving an offering as well, but he wasn't giving the firstfruits. He was giving, probably, access. His heart was in there. Yeah, so it shows that... He didn't see the point in the first place. Right. And which is proven in the fact that he thought he could get away with giving second, third, fourth, fifthfruits. So, the heart isn't in it, thus we don't do what should be done. Because if we were going to do what should be done, we would think back to what the Bible says, we would think about what God's word points to, why it points to that, and the importance of it, and be so intentional to do that. Yes, we may not feel passionate about it, or feel that it is what we want to do, necessarily, but our heart is in it so much as to seek out God's word, seek out God's favor, and then do the very thing that God would want, right? And so, that's more of the understanding of what Abel is doing. Abel, at the very bare minimum level, knows that God doesn't want the access. He wants the firstfruits. He wants the very... Well, he wants our heart. Well, he wants our heart. And didn't it say that Abel had a relationship with God that Cain did not? Maybe it doesn't say that, but... It doesn't say that. It does say that about other people on the Seth side, the good side, right? Where people are walking with God, and they have this relationship. And so, it's... I lost my train of thought. So, but what you're trying to point to is that God wants our heart. Yes, but what follows our heart is our actions and our words, right? Because it is the overflow of the heart, right? And so, we can't... What I'm trying to say is we cannot be intentional about something that we don't care to do, right? Pete Yeah. Jared Because if we don't care to do it, we won't be intentional. And we won't, like, I'm not going to seek the scripture. I'm not going to pray to God. I'm not going to ask God for help. I'm just going to move on my merry way and do it the way that I think I should do it. Pete So, bringing it to application, because I feel like we don't always do that. Jared I'm getting there. Pete Okay. Jared We think to... Because it's not just about what we think is right. It's about doing what is right. Pete What we know is right. Jared Yeah. So, the Pharisees... No, no, no. What is right? Because we know that the Pharisees thought that they were doing what is right, but they didn't know the scripture. They knew what it said. They had the information, but they don't know the scripture. Because if they did, then they would have heeded God's... Jesus's words and seen him as Christ. As a savior. They didn't. Because they didn't know. They didn't understand. They didn't care about the true heart of God. And that's why he calls them the sons of Satan, sons of the devil. Pete They cared more about their ego, their culture, their society, their label amongst men. Their status amongst men. Jared Yeah. And granted, Holy Spirit wasn't around. Very different. But even still, they could have, definitely at this time, read the scripture, seen... And truly, instead of being like, oh, there's this Jesus guy around, and he said some things that I really didn't like. It's like, okay, well, he's pointing to scripture. Maybe we should be looking at the scripture instead of just calling him out. Oh, I know the scripture really, really, really, really well. And because I know it really, really well, because I've spent my entire life around it, thus, I know exactly what he's saying is wrong. That's not entirely... That's not how God wants us to look at it. He gave us... Or he gave them, especially, the Pentateuch or whatever. Pete Pentateuch. Jared Pentateuch, sorry. Pete What is the Pentateuch? Jared Pentateuch should be the law, I think. Pete Yeah, we talked about this. The first five books. Jared Yeah, the first five books. Yeah, Pentateuch, the first five books. It's all they had. Pete Well... Jared No, it's not all they had. Pete They had the prophets as they came. Jared Yeah, they had the whole first testament, pretty much. Pete Majority of it? I don't know. We could look at that as a decade. Jared They had a good amount of it. They at least knew about David. They knew about Solomon. They knew about the prophets. Pete Depending on the time, of course. Jared Yeah, well, they knew about the prophets because they at least knew that a savior was coming, that a savior was promised to them. Pete But again, it depends. So, the Israelites before Moses didn't have written word. Jared No, no, no, I'm talking about the Pharisees. Pete They had, oh, Pharisees. Jared Yeah, yeah. Pete Yeah, yeah, sorry. Thanks for reframing that again. Jared So... Pete Memory of a goldfish, long. Jared There's, again, a sense of doing things right, having the heart to do it right, and then actually doing it, right? So, I guess if we look at it in three steps, if you don't know what to do that is right, then can you have the heart to do it? Perhaps, but then if you don't do it, that's sin, right? The idea of if I know what to do and I don't do it, if I do it because I have the heart, then it's not sin. I didn't know, right? And so, there is a sense of sin because maybe what I did was wrong because I didn't know, because I didn't have the heart to be intentional to look to see what it is that I actually need to do. Pete Ignorance of the law is not an excuse. Jared Yeah. So, perhaps there is good that is being done on your part, but also there is sin because you weren't intentional. Pete Also, the idea the Bible says about if you know what not to do or you know what to do and you don't do it, for you that is sin, isn't just saying morality is willy-nilly and based on the person. It's referring back to the idea that God wrote on the soul of every person, morality. Before he had Moses write down 10 commandments, he gave a conscience to every person, which is the basis of God's character and the basis of morality. And that's where sin has the ability to know what is wrong and why certain things are so delicious, so appealing, because it's, oh, it's so wrong, but it feels right kind of feeling, right? And then talking about the Holy Spirit not being there in the same way, not indwelling believers. I still think there were believers. In fact, I know there were because of Hebrews and the… Jared Hall of Faith. Pete Hall of Faith. Jared Yeah. Pete Thank you. I've never thought about it this way, but maybe it's this way. How do you be a believer when you don't have the Holy Spirit changing who you are from the inside out, changing your heart so that you desire things of God and not things of the world? Well, you fall in love with God. Non-believers can fall in love with each other, and their will is bent towards one another. Jared Yeah. Pete Not perfectly. Jared Yeah. Pete Definitely not perfectly. But as believers with the Holy Spirit in us, we're not perfect. Jared Yeah. Pete So, a less perfect, a much harder process as a believer, but to fall in love with God is what I'm thinking. That's the only way you could be a believer, is to have that genuine relationship with God. Jared Yeah, which would come from knowing the law. Pete Might be one way in practicality in that time. Like, it might be one way relationship of sorts. But how is it any different than a believer, you know? Jared Well, yeah, because, you know, they're under the law still. The law hasn't been given. Pete And just to be clear, I said believer as in, like, a huge fan of Justin Bieber. Jared Justin Bieber, right. Pete Just to be a fan, to love someone that you don't know anything about. Jared Yeah. Pete Well, you know everything about them, but they don't know you. The difference here is you know everything about God, and God tells you that he knows everything about you too. So, this is different in a level that you can both be obsessed and a fanboy or a fangirl of God, but you can also love him knowing that he loves you. Jared Yeah. Pete And even though it's right now a long-distance relationship and you guys can't talk too much, like, one day you guys are gonna be… Jared Side by side. Pete Side by side. Jared Yeah, face to face. Pete Yeah. Jared Yeah. Pete Never thought about that. That's crazy. So, that's almost… I'm sorry, I got an idea there. But that kind of brings some clarity to me in my life and my experience with the Christians. I've always wanted that relationship. How do I get that relationship? It's by intentionally falling in love with God. Instead of the Americanized idea of getting shot by Cupid, right? Like, falling in love with someone. You pursue the action of loving and the things that cause you to fall in love with someone. And you can do that with anybody. You can do that with God. So, maybe that's what I've been missing personally. Like, I've always had the Holy Spirit, but I've never had the overwhelming desire of and love for my creator. Jared Sure. Pete Which is different than being indwell, you would say. It's like having… It's being married and being married as a loving husband, loving wife. Like that honeymoon love, right? Jared Honeymoon phase. Pete Versus being married and being roommates. I guess right now, spiritually, in the past, I've been more of a roommate with the Holy Spirit than a best friend, I would say. But he would say a wife. I just don't know how I feel about that. Jared Yeah. Well, and again, love is… God is love, right? He embodies that. And so, the idea of this always passionate, lovey-dovey kind of love devoid of, one, the responsibility that comes with that, the sacrifice that comes with that, and the devotion that comes with that. If we look at what is produced by the passion theory, we'll call it, I'm impassioned, thus I am going to do X, Y, and Z, right? If you do X, Y, and Z apart from being impassioned, but not apart from knowing and understanding who this person is, what it is that they want, what is good, what is right, whatever, and not apart from, yeah, what is good and what is right. So, you not only know them, but your desire is to do what is good and what is right, which is what everybody, in some sense, we want to do what is good and what is right, but we don't. Mike Are we talking in general, or are we bringing it back to God? Jared I'm talking in general. Um, so, we don't need passion to do those things. We choose to have, we decide in our own minds that we want to have a passion so that we feel driven to do that, but if we do those things because of the right reasons, because we know, and because we understand, then we can care rightly, right? Um, Mike How do we do that? Jared Well, the gospel is a perfect depiction of this. It is by the hearing of the word of God. So, you have to know, you have to have the information. Mike You can't believe in nothing. Jared You can't believe, you can't, well, you can't believe in just any other God and say, this is Jesus or whatever. It is the one true God, it is Jesus that died on the cross for our sins. We are sinners. We need a savior. God sent that savior. Mike Other words, you can't, you can't believe in anything, but it doesn't mean you're believing in the right thing. Jared Yeah. So, we need the right information, and then we need to care. If we don't care, then we don't believe the information. Mike And to care, you have to believe. Jared To care, yeah, to care, you have to believe. Mike But to believe, you need to care. So, that's the conundrum. So, that's why the Holy Spirit cares, God cares for us first, Jesus died for us first. while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Jesus cared for us first, saved us first, and then from that, we had the ability to believe and then care, and then from there. So, caring, we'll put it like this, caring in this sense is knowing that we're sinners and that we need a savior, right? So, we have the information, we care, or we at least understand that we need, that we're sinners and we need a savior, and then the next step is, if we believe, then we will. PWE The natural step is to care. RW Well, no, no, no. If we believe, all who call on the name of the Lord will be saved, right? You cannot call on the name of the Lord if you do not believe, if you do not care, if you do not know that you're a sinner and that you need a savior, you don't believe, you don't care, and you don't have a right knowledge, right? So, if you have a right knowledge, you know your station, your position right now, and then you call on the name of the Lord, you know what it is that God calls for. You know, you care, and then you do it. PWE Because you care. RW Because you care, because you know. PWE Because you know, because God cared for you first. RW Yes. So, we have the availability of that knowledge because God loves us first, and he gave us the knowledge so that we can know that we need, that we are sinners and that we need a savior, so that we can believe, and when we believe, we will call on his name and be saved. PWE Because we care. RW Because we care, because we know, because he loved us first. PWE Yeah, so… RW But that carries into every action, right? So… PWE So, what's happened to a believer that doesn't care anymore, like us? Like, we were talking about how we have sucked at reading his work recently. What's going on? Do we not care? It seems like we don't care because we're not acting. RW Well, let's think about it this way. I'm gonna refer to my Facebook post because it really does apply to this, but the idea behind that post is that… You brought up gray areas earlier. Why are there so many gray areas? PWE Why? RW Yes. PWE Probably because relationships are complex. RW Okay. PWE I would say that there's no two of the same person, basically. PWE Basically, there's always just one point of data, so there's nothing to basically reference off of to be the same as well. PWE I must have forgot the framing. RW What's the question again? PWE Why are there so many gray areas? And then you said there's only one point of reference. How does that answer that? PWE Well, you brought up that relationships are so complex. Two different relationships between two people aren't the same, so there's only one point of data. You can't compare it to other things. RW Oh, each relationship between two people is unique. PWE Yes. PWE Okay. So it's one point of data, and then when you start including more than two people, now it's become complex. And then when you have eight billion people, it's hyper-complex. PWE Yeah. PWE Yes. And throw in technology with that. PWE Throw in writing. PWE Well, no. Throw in writing and technology and... PWE Ability to communicate. PWE Ability to communicate and throw in what we talked about last week with our genes and how they're influenced by... PWE Our ancestors. PWE Our ancestors. PWE It's basically our ancestors communicating with us. PWE Yeah. And how that has been affected all the way from the line of Adam and Moses, and further and further and further. And so what happens is... I mean, just look at AI. Just look at the internet, okay? How many documents are out there that are referenced within a browser? PWE Oh, when you do a simple Google search? PWE When you do a simple Google search. PWE It's like millions, billions. PWE Yeah. PWE Yeah. PWE A lot. So there's a lot of gray areas because it's a lot of burying what is actually going on, right? PWE It's a lot of noise. PWE Yeah. PWE But is it all gray? PWE No. When you get down to it, even looking at a screen, if we want to take that analogy, if it was straight black and white pixels, there would be completely white pixels and there'd be completely black pixels, right? PWE So what is? I'm so glad you said that. It's like this just writes itself. PWE Unless we're talking about paint and we mixed it beforehand. PWE Well, with paint, you mix black and white to make gray, right? PWE But now it's permanent gray. PWE Right. So the way I look at it is, what is a gray area? A gray area is there is some semblance of good available here, but there's also a semblance of bad. And they are so interwoven in our minds PWE They can't be separated. PWE That they can't be separated, so it's gray. So how do I get through that? But that's not technically possible because in Christ, there's only good and there's only evil because anything apart from God is evil. So man comes in with our own ideas of morality, we doubt God, and we do the thing that we know we shouldn't be doing because we don't care, even though we have the information, right? With the Spirit, that doesn't condemn us necessarily if we go back to salvation, but it is a sin and it is counted to us, right? And especially so back then, because they didn't have the Holy Spirit, they were under the law, and so they had to know, they had to be intentional, knowing what the truth is, knowing what God's law is, to then care, because if they cared, then they would be doing the thing. CB Well, maybe, but when Hebrews is talking about the people that had faith, didn't they always have a moment where God made them aware? PWE Yeah. CB And they chose to believe? PWE Yeah. CB And because of their belief, God counted it to them as righteousness? PWE Yeah. PWE Otherwise, they wouldn't have done anything. CB So it's still the same as in God has to reach out first. PWE Yeah. CB God has to care first. PWE Yeah. That's why effectively, salvation is the same because in the Old Testament, God did reach out, and those that were faithful who had the scriptures available to them were pouring over them and knew them. PWE Also, God chose, like, Moses, who was not the best choice, but God made him the best choice. CB Mm-hmm. PWE David, who was not the best choice, made him the best choice. Same thing as, like, I'm definitely not the best choice. Well, and what was it that they decided in their mind? PWE I believe. CB Yahweh is trustworthy. PWE Mm-hmm. CB Thus, I will go into- PWE Man, you're making me feel messed up right now. CB Why? PWE Because three weeks ago, Thursday night after church, I was basically complaining, I don't trust God. CB Sure. PWE Conviction's real. CB But what were you saying in light of that? What do you mean? PWE Because you said, yeah, you don't, you're not trusting him with whatever, but you also said that you do understand that he is trustworthy. CB I might not remember exactly what I said. PWE You don't. It's fine. I remember what you said. CB Okay, good. PWE But- CB I was complaining that I wish God would fix the sin problem that I had immediately. PWE Yeah. And it was really annoying that he just wouldn't. CB Yeah. PWE But just because that's my experience doesn't mean he's any less God. CB Yeah. PWE And he's any less faithful. CB Even though it feels different. PWE Yeah. CB But my feelings are not what is true. PWE My heart is deceitful above all things. PWE Yeah. PWE So it's not our experience that defines reality. It informs it, and it is only through truth that we can know what is actually black and white. CB Yeah. And I do want to be fair to God in this situation. I was definitely a little brat that night. I definitely leaned hard into the, God, why haven't you done this area instead of the, but yeah, I know you're God area. PWE Yeah, sure. Well, and I'm not trying to excuse this by saying this, but like- CB No, no, no. I didn't even hear what you said between the last thing I said and when I just- PWE Oh. The last thing I said and what I just said there. CB Yeah. PWE Because I felt the Holy Spirit tell me that I needed to say that. CB Yeah. Sorry. PWE No, you're good. But it, all of this is just a fight against ego, right? We talked about it with Adam and Eve. They did what they did because they thought they knew better. And so going back to what I was saying about gray areas, the only reason they're gray areas is because we think we know better, but there is only one form of good, and it is God. And if there's only one form of good and it is God- PWE Then there's no gray. CB Then there is no gray. There can't be. There just can't be because sin cannot dwell in his presence. PWE So how does gray exist then? CB Gray exists because we, well, part of it is we don't search the scriptures. We don't know it. We don't know by heart. We don't recite it. We don't pore over it every single day. We don't care to have it be our every piece of information because it is darn near everything that we need because it tells us that we need. I was literally thinking about this as I was writing this post. I could not write as much as I wanted to because nobody would read that much. PWE We'd be lucky if anybody listened to this point. CB Right. PWE So if you did, thank you. CB But life is simple. PWE Yeah. CB It's extremely simple. PWE And extremely complicated. CB Well, it's simple because all I need to do is eat. How do I eat? I work. I make money, and I'm living my life. I am alive. I'm able to stay alive. I do stay alive. And then God says, in order to live, believe in me. Believe on Christ. Christ is life. PWE To live is Christ, to die is gain, right? CB Mm-hmm. PWE And so it expels that sense of, oh, I need to keep on living, right? That comes with just working to eat, right? Granted, yes, there are other things you have to do to pay for, blah, blah, blah, blah. I know that, but— CB You're talking about the pointless grind. PWE Huh? CB You're talking about the pointless grind? PWE Yeah. But if you are in Christ, and you're working for Christ, and you're eating for Christ, death is gain. CB And it's no longer pointless. PWE And it's no longer pointless. CB Life is gain. Death is also gain. PWE Yeah. CB Not because death itself was originally gain, but because Christ made it gain. PWE Yeah. CB Because now we get to go and be alive with Him forever. PWE Yeah. CB How I should have been in the first place with no gray. PWE Yeah. And so there being so much gray is because, well, yeah, I have to work, ugh, but the workplace is this, that, and the other. And like, oh, there's so many bad things going on in and around that. And the origin of that is because of blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then it's like, is it good for me to work here? I don't really know because I need to work, but I don't know if I need to work here because of X, Y, and Z. But I don't know if I can go get a job at another place. And if I keep, you know, applying at a million other places, like, maybe all of them could be better. They could be good. But I still need to work because I need to work for Christ. And if I need to work for Christ, then I need to be working at a place that is X, Y, and Z. But, you know, I really need to eat. And if I don't eat in a few weeks, then I'm, you know, I'm going to die. And if I die, then I can't have a family. And if I can't have a family, then there's no point for me to eat. But if I don't eat, then, if I don't eat X, Y, and Z, other things, then I'm being bad to my body because of, and then just, it's so much information. And as humans gain more and more and more and more and more information, we're not focusing on the simplicity that is, you need to eat or you need to work so that you can eat so that you can live. And when we come back to that, we understand, oh, wow, this is actually really simple. Because what were they going to do? What were they going to do in the garden? Work and eat. And play, if you know what I mean. And dwell in the presence of God. And multiply. Yes, absolutely. And multiply. I hate math. But... That kind of math, it's good kind of math. But that's what they were going to do. That was what God had ordained for their lives. To work, to eat, to live. In his presence. Forever. Forever. And not because those things were infinitely and abundantly joyful and full of meaning and purpose in life. But in Christ, in God. The relationship with God himself is abundantly life, abundantly enjoyable. He is the well that won't run dry. He is the bread of life. He is the light of the world. He is, you know, everything. I mean, a minor foretaste for everybody is... good friend, like a best friend or a group of friends. It's so rare. Well, sometimes it happens in the church, but most of the time we suck at that. We suck at being true friends, true brothers and sisters in Christ. Oftentimes it's about something else, and we betray the fact that we're family, and we get into squabbles about societal things or cultural ideas or theological ideas or status or the sins that we've committed, and that trumps the fact that we're family for some reason, which shouldn't happen, but it does constantly, and we suck at it. But we can all relate to the fact that, well, I hope we all can relate to the fact that we've had a best friend, and that feeling of that relationship makes life worth living. It is life itself. Yeah. And imagine that with God, the one who, like, you find life in your best friend because they're made in the image of God. The personality that they have is God-given. That's why every single child that is born has its own unique personality, because they're their own unique person, and personhood is given by God and God alone. And so, you love that person, and that person loves you, and you enjoy life abundantly because of the image of God that God has placed in them. Imagine having the source itself and have that relationship with Him. Yeah. I think that's unimaginable for me, to have pure life, like that moment in time at that church before everything just fell apart, right? A group of 20 friends, and even if we weren't all close, close friends or barely even acquaintances, we all tried our best to treat each other like brothers and sisters, like family, and that's so rare. But that one moment in this sinful, dark world, like, it was life. It's something that I look back on yearning for, and there's been moments like that throughout my life, but they're so few and far between. Like, imagine if you could have that permanently, like, ride that high forever with no chance of it going away or ever having a low. That's heaven. You can imagine that. Imagine it more unimaginably better than that, because that's what God says about heaven. Like, it's better than you can possibly even imagine, and what I've described there sounds enough like heaven. Matthew 21 Yeah. It all comes down to relationship, right? Matthew 21 Yeah. Well, and to bring it back to our text in a weird way, we… Matthew 21 Oh, the next part. Let's bring it home. And Adam knew his wife again. She bore a son and called his name Seth. For she said, God has anointed for me another offspring instead of Abel, for Cain killed him. I'll say that again. She said, God has anointed for me another offspring instead of Abel, for Cain killed him. To Seth also a son was born, and he called his name Enosh. At that time, people began to call upon the name of the Lord. And the reason I wanted to read that is relationship, like calling upon the name of the Lord is life itself. It's not what you're going to tie it back to? Matthew 21 It was not, actually. Okay, well, what were you going to tie it back to? Matthew 21 But I guess in that same vein, to some degree, pointing back to the fact that Lamech did not invoke the name of God. He did not call upon the name of the Lord in that moment. And that's everything. Like you're saying, it is life itself. Matthew 21 And so, in his instance, it was death itself. Matthew 21 Yeah. Matthew 21 Interesting. Matthew 21 And we don't know what happens after this. We don't know if this curse that he has brought on or has said means anything. Matthew 21 I mean, God didn't actually curse him. Matthew 21 Yeah. But we do know that he said this, and words have power. And it is by our words that we have the ability to do anything. Words are our power, our tool. Like prayer is our superpower as Christians. We get to pray to the Almighty God who holds everything in the balance for us, who holds life for us itself. And so, saying something like this means a lot. And we're reading the Word of God. I think I said this when we were talking about the creation, but we need to know what the Word of God says because we care and we are choosing to be intentional so that we can speak and act rightly, so that we invoke the name of God when it is appropriate, not when we think it is appropriate. We ought to know, right? We ought to be intentional to know his word because we care so that we can act and speak rightly, so that we can know that it is important for us to speak his name, the name above every other name, rightly and in everything that we do because we want our hearts, he wants our hearts to align with his. Because we don't know our hearts, because we don't understand it, only he understands it, and we do what we don't want to do. The only way we can do what we do want is by knowing his word because we have the Holy Spirit, for Pete's sake. And because we have the Holy Spirit, we have the availability to know and to care, even when we don't feel like it. Pete The only way to not be able to do what you do want to do, which is the good that you want to do. How did you say it? We do what we don't want to do, and we don't do what we want to do. Well, that's how it goes. Jared The way forward. That the only way that happens is if the Holy Spirit has changed our desires, has changed our beliefs, has changed our cares at the core. And out of the heart, the mouth speaks, out of the heart, we act. Pete The pathway forward is through authenticity, contrition, and confession. Jared Shout out to Jason. Shout out to Jason. Pete I feel like we have to tag him, though. Jared Yeah, we do. He needs to listen to the pod, and he needs to be on the pod. Pete No, he can do what he wants, but he's a great, great pastor. Jared We want him on the pod. Pete Yeah, that'd be nice. Jared I think that's a good- Pete Good landing. Jared Stopping point. Pete Yeah. Dude, we finally got through chapter four. Jared Yeah. Pete Check that out. I think we could- oh, no, I talked about Seth in the next portion. We're good. Jared Yeah. We'll probably- Pete Well, yeah, we'll just go back a little bit. Jared Yeah. How long are we at? Pete I think we're at least at- Jared Two hours, nine minutes. Pete Two hours? Really? Jared Yeah. Pete Oh, dang. We're doing great. Jared Yeah. Pete Okay. Jared Sort of. Pete Well- Jared If we talk for another hour and a half, I guess I'll be like a normal- Pete Right in the pocket. Jared Right in some pocket. Pete Yeah, honestly. Jared Well, I don't know. In my own life, I guess, I've heard of people or seen people do something wrong, and I've kind of done the same thing, but I never really thought that I deserved more punishment. I think I kind of thought of myself as like, I deserve punishment for sure, never just in the same way of, I deserve more punishment, I guess. Jared I mean, part of that is, I mean, especially if you grew up in the church, like you already know what you deserve, which is the ultimate punishment, which is non-existence. So I can kind of understand that because—well, I can, and I've always lived like, oh, I should absolutely suffer in the most awful and terrible ways possible because of the things that I've done. But I also have understood in light of that that the ultimate thing that I deserve is hell and destruction. So there's not really anything—more punishment is like, okay, this isn't more punishment, this is just deserved circumstance, deserved outcome of what I've done. Because anything—to deserve more would mean that I deserved less. And I don't deserve less, I deserve more. Does that make sense? Mm-hmm. So, Michael. That's me. Mikhail, did you have any ideas? We're just ending with that? No, I just wanted to get everybody—get a temperature on everybody's—not a temperature, a gauge on everybody's ideas. Oh, I see. Instead of just diving right in. Well, do you have any thoughts on what he said, since he said it was a partial idea? See if we can work together and make it a full idea. Stephen, could you kindly re-summarize that for me? Whenever you do something bad, you should get punished, even if someone else has also done it, I guess. But I don't know if necessarily that you deserve more punishment. So is there greater punishment deserved for the reenactment of wrong? You're talking about specifically Cain sinned, and then Lamex sinned, yes, twice as much, but should he be punished 11 times more? Should we think that we should be punished more, yeah. Just by default? Yeah. Is that an idea? Yeah, I guess, yeah. But that's something that you've never thought of? Just because you sin in the same way as another person, and they get a certain consequence, you don't automatically think I deserve more punishment than they got? Is that what you're saying? Yeah. Like, I know something's wrong, and so that's why I said that I know I deserve punishment for doing that wrong thing. But I don't know, let's say two brothers, one goes out and basically has a BB gun, is just shooting everywhere, and takes out one of the windows on the car. I haven't done that. Well, it's just a scenario. You're reading my mom's diary. Okay. So you have done it? I'm not saying that. Okay. Not at all. And then the other brother comes out and does the same thing. Yeah, but the first brother, let's say, gets like... Slapping the wrist? Yeah, gets the belt like three times, let's say. Um, should the younger brother that basically not at that same exact time, like right after, goes out and does it, like later on down the light, does the exact same thing, but doesn't shoot around randomly, let's say, just accidentally ricochets off, then hits the window, cracks it, but the window still has to be replaced, the same as it just breaking entirely. Should the younger brother get three lashes or ten lashes? Well, what you just described is... One on purpose, one on accident? Well, one is based off of, yeah, an accident. One is based on being reckless, and the other is more so an accident. Yeah. Still could be argued as reckless, but less so. Is that right? The only difference between the brothers is that they did these things years apart. Because if one did it and it was an accident, then that's a completely different issue. Um, but if they just did it pretty much the same, then that's... I mean, technically, the other... first brother. Well, both of them didn't necessarily intend to break anything. Yeah. Well, in one sense, recklessness is its own sin. You're not being intentional. You're not being safe. You don't care. You're not thinking about anybody else other than yourself, and you're just doing whatever it is that you want to do. And so, selfishness, yeah, should be punished, especially as Christians, because in being selfish, eventually all you're going to do is hurt other people. In terms of the amount of time, chronologically, the second brother, I'm assuming at that point, depending on how much time it was, was told both what happened and what the punishment was. And thus, them knowing means that they are responsible, and responsibility is weighty and could be cause for greater punishment. Because if you know, then you are actively rebelling against the authority that is telling you that this is wrong. If they weren't told that's, one, bad parenting and complete irresponsibility on their part. It's fallibility, like they don't remember. Yeah, it could be fallibility, but even still, that doesn't negate the fact that they need to be intentional about how they parent, and they need to still tell their other child of what not to do in light of the mistakes of the first child. So, yeah, if they weren't told, there's nothing done about it, then the parents on one side need to be like, well, we didn't tell them, and it's still a sin, still wrong, so they still need to be punished. But do they need to be punished more because we didn't tell them? No. But if we did tell them... Some of the responsibility is on them. Yeah. But if we did tell them, then, yeah, we absolutely need to punish them more. It needs to be proven that there's a... Well, also, like the kid is, I mean, like you said, being reckless. Yeah. But also, they broke something, which is a known wrong. You don't have to be told not to do that. Yeah. You shouldn't be, you shouldn't even need to be, sorry, I'm not speaking into the mic. You shouldn't even need to be told to not be selfish, to not be reckless, but because we're sinners, we don't think twice about it. Yeah. We just assume that we're the most important person in the moment. Yeah. Like, we're not assuming maybe that we're the most important person in the world. Like, not many people are that daft, but... But in a sense, we are kind of... We're saying we're the most important person in this local area of time and space. Yeah. And then we feel really bad about what we do because, oh, [bleep], I'm the most important person in this moment. No, maybe, but I'm thinking more so now the world is giving me a reality check, and I have to pay for my consequences for my own actions. I'm the most important person in this moment. I've just done something wrong, and now it's going to affect me. I don't know if that's a matter of importance. It's a matter of a reality check. It's a matter of wrongs needing to be righted. Right. Well, if I know that I'm the president, and as the president, I go and make a very bad decision, I am hyper-aware that I am the most important person in this position, and I've just done something awful. If I didn't think of myself highly in that moment, or if I didn't think of myself in a high regard, important regard, in whatever regard that is over other people, then it wouldn't affect me as much that I've just done something awful because I don't care what it's doing to me, right? And so much of being a kid is, I'm so important. So if you were really remorseful. And as the important person, I've just done something awful, which means that this is really bad. For me. For me. Because I'm still the most important person. Because I'm still the most important person. So the heart still hasn't changed. Yeah. A remorseful heart would be, oh my gosh, I just broke my parents' window, and they were having a great day, or at least the day they were having, until I came along and wrecked their window. Yeah. And a good parent would be like, look, you just did this and this and this, and this affected all of this. And it's not just that you broke the window. It's also all of this and blah, blah, blah, blah. They have to take the car to a shop. They have to do all this stuff. We have to pay for it. These are the things that you cause because you've been so selfish. And the unfortunate thing is most kids will have to learn through paying the price, the cost of their decisions, in order to realize what it actually costs the people that they wrong. So that's why it's not bad parenting. To reproduce consequences, even. Because a five-year-old's not going to be able to pay for a window, let's say, or maybe an eight-year-old, right? But they can pay in physical labor. They can pay in pain. There's ways to pay. Maybe pain isn't the best way to go, inflicted by your parents. It depends on the kid. Yeah. Depends on the kid. Depends on their heart. Depends on the situation. Like, how many times have you... Oh, I thought there was a bug on my foot. That was scary. All right. We need to take a five-minute break for Daniel's heart attack. Calm myself. Calm my soul. Yeah, it depends. Well, and it even says in the Bible, the father that spares the rod does not love their child, or something to that effect. It's like you're not... It's really strange, because I was thinking, okay, how do you not do those things that are so selfish? Well, you love people hired, and you love people more than yourself. Yeah, well, you have to be taught. Yeah. And that's just not innate to us. We love ourselves more than anybody else. Yeah. And that's proof in the fact that you must punish a child. You must discipline a child. I gotta stop saying punish. But you gotta discipline a child. Basically, train them in the way that they should go. Like you would train a dog. Yeah. Except it's not as easy, because people are complex. Yeah. Right. Praise God that they're complex. Otherwise, we wouldn't have conversations like this. Right. So it's... I don't know where I was going with that. But I like your point about the child knowing, seeing his older brother get that punishment and still doing it. He has a burden of seeing what the judge's decision was. So he knows what the law is. Yeah. And he still breaks it. Yeah. And people will be like, oh, well, I didn't remember. It's like, yeah, but you didn't make the intentional decision to remember. Right. You were there. You saw it. You didn't care. Right. And that is punishable. It's this kind of ties things together for Old Testament or pre-law and post-law. Like before the law, people were still sinners. They just didn't know specifically. Sure. They didn't know the specifics, but God would have taken them out back and given them a weapon. Yeah. Right. After the weapon, when Moses came down with the belt, right? We're really mixing metaphors here. Now all the children of Israel know, oh, dad doesn't want us to do this. And they still did it. And so they're more culpable. Yeah. Going back to what I was talking about, because I kind of remember, please don't. Come on. Love. Love. You have to teach a child love through discipline. Yeah. Because to me, I think to not sin against someone, you have to love them more than yourself. Sure. Take a lot of intentionality. That's for sure. So much. Be intense. And so how do you learn that? Yeah. Besides discipline and being taught that you aren't the most important person in the world and the things that you do, do affect other people. Yeah. And to teach you that, I need to show you a monogram of the pain that I felt when you sinned against me. And not because I'm trying to get even with you or take revenge on you. It's because I love you. Yeah. And I don't want you to go through life not understanding what that is, what love is. Because if you don't understand love to that degree, you think love is when people serve you and give things to you and make you feel good. No. True love is when you bend over backwards for that person and you consider them above yourself. Yeah. No matter if they do it for you or not. Yeah. Which, of course, not a lot of us actually ever get to that point, experiencing that kind of love that we can give to someone, that kind of unconditional love. And those who do, only in moments. Yeah. Well, and I was talking to someone last week or something like that, because we were talking about dating. And I was telling him what you just said, basically. The world tells us that the person we should be looking for should be making us feel a certain way. Yeah. And the Bible says the thing that you should be feeling is service, desire to serve them. What are you willing to do for them? And why are you willing to do it for them? Not, what are they doing for me? What can you do for me? Yeah. Otherwise, I will not love you. Yeah. Yeah, what can you bring to the table? What do you have to offer? That's not love. Yeah. That's not love. That's conditional. It requires the other person to be thinking about you when you're not thinking about them. And again, you're the most important person in the world now. Yeah. We really need a bigger trash can. Or you could have just thrown it away earlier. Do you have other trash cans? No, that's actually the only one. We have to reduce everything to ash. Do you have to put that out front on trash day? We actually burn it. Oh, we might need to show the audience what we're talking about. Unless we can be quiet for a second. Well, that's going to get cut out here. Here's our trash can, everybody. It's quite small. Beautiful. Yep. If you're listening, it's basically the size of a small bowl. Of a soup bowl, perhaps. A soup bowl? It's like half the size of my soup bowl, but maybe that's just me. Maybe your soup bowl's really big. Maybe I need to be less fat. I think you would have to be fat in the first part. What do you see on this wonderful slab of abs? I think there's a point to be made that just because you have fat doesn't mean you are fat. Here's another point. The more fat you have, the more the Lord loves you. Biblical. I knew you were going to say that. Save the fat of the lamb for the Lord. Wow. The more fat you are, the more God loves you. It sounds like we've moved on from this topic. A little bit. Do you think there's more to say about it? Steven, do you have any final thoughts, ideas? Any response to what we said? No, I'm good. Steven's really good at this. I think he's really good at it because he presents an idea that's not fully formed, and so we feel like we have to finish the idea. And then we feel so important afterwards. Are you doing this on purpose, Steven? He's so wise. Isn't there something literally in the Bible that we read in 10? Yeah, that's what I was referring to. Even a silent person can seem wise. Yep. It doesn't say anything. But we'll never know. Amazing. Steven. Wow. What a dig. No, it's not a dig. He hasn't even said anything. He's just smiling. Smiles and nods. He's taking a little swig. Yeah, he is. A little swig. He's like, you guys can talk all you want. You should just spit it in your face. Don't do that, please. I still have my first piece of gum. Oh my gosh. I've gone through like 15 of them. Yeah, I've watched. I'm an addict. At the start of this podcast, I was addicted to nicotine. Yeah, you were. I was vaping, and then I went on to the nicotine gum, and you guys were like a little bit, hmm, I don't know about that. Now I'm on to just regular gum. Hopefully you're brushing your teeth like crazy. I am. Good. Why do you need to brush your teeth, April? Because there's a [bleep] ton of sugar in those things. Aspartame? Absolutely destroyed. It's sugar-free. It says aspartame. I don't know. I guess I'll go to the dentist in 10 years and see if I have cavities. But shout out to Steven. I don't think I would have stopped the nicotine gum even, unless he challenged me. Like, what did you say? To not get any more, and I'd stop drinking soda. Yeah. At home. Yeah. He didn't qualify it at the time. He said i'll stop drinking. Dr. Cooper. I'll stop drinking soda Yeah, um, and then I asked I mean does that mean I have to stop drinking so in the times that i've seen You steve and I have not seen you drink anything but soda. Yeah. Well, no, I just this is I'm talking about recently like I haven't seen him drink soda someone Oh, he made this agreement before that thursday night when we went to canes and he was drinking that giant soda. Yeah Yeah Yeah before yeah the podcast but but i'm just giving you a shot because you said you you sort of triggered the whole thing um So thank you for that but also, um Fallible steven over here. He's not perfect either. Um, because like I pointed out I pointed out the fact later. I was giving him, uh, I'm gonna have to bleep this out. Let's get him [bleep]. Uh for for uh For drinking soda afterwards and he's like, oh, I know. Um, and then I was teasing i'm like i'm gonna I'm gonna get some nicotine then he's like go for it I don't care anymore I was like [bleep] you're addicted But no, I didn't I didn't Still didn't do it. Yeah, but I was like really tempted. So I just I grabbed some some gum because that kind of curbed the uh The need to do something with my mouth, you know, I also gave you props for that too So, oh, thanks, man, not not getting up when I said you could so yeah, it's true Yeah, well, I appreciate you kicking it up in the first place. So thanks, man um You got a question. I had an idea an idea. Yeah, uh, It's an idea that we've had before Okay, and I might not be able to think of it offhand, but it's in my notes which are on my computer now. So let's check that Okay, yeah, I I don't uh trust sugar-free anything no anymore why not especially well Gum is a good example nowadays, but also a diet soda and zero sugar soda Why are those bad things? um just because If they don't have like natural sweeteners, they're artificial sweeteners to us are Definitely bad. Uh, well not definitely like stevia is not horrible, but It's not necessarily better It's not necessarily worse than just drinking a regular soda. And so if you're gonna drink soda No matter what would you rather have would your body rather have the sugary soda? or the fake fake sweetener soda and 100 it should be the fake sweetener soda, even though it's still bad for you. Hmm. It's less bad for you. Hmm I'm, not drinking soda to be healthy though. So yeah, but that's the reason why you shouldn't drink soda That's that's why you should drink diet soda if you're gonna drink soda, especially because diet coke is so much better than regular coke No lie. No coke zero sucks. I hate coke zero, but diet soda diet coke Hmm something about it. It's like I I can feel it eating my teeth and something about that Wow Anyways, that's the reason that's the reason yeah, what's what's your idea using flavor? It's great so the idea is uh Uh, I saw this i'm like this really ties into the perfume section actually The idea is we need relationships so much That we would die without them and the proof is in the babies, uh The the experiment with the babies that died because they didn't have any physical touch. Mm-hmm You don't talk about that. I mean we like you said we already talked about that. We did. Yeah on the show. Yeah I don't remember talking about that. It was the last one off that I was on Shoot not last week. Well goldfish memory. I told you I don't know if it was I I know that we we talked about I talked about that a bunch but why you said it pertains to What we just talked about. Mm-hmm it's because um We were talking about how god is In a relationship with him is the source of life. Yeah, like the relationship itself. It gives you life It gives you there's no reason to live life unless you are living life uh with with others With other people that care about you with other people that you care about and who? More than the person who created everybody because he cared about everybody and he cares about you specifically And he wants you to care about him Genuinely, and therefore doesn't force you to right so that that's why it relates, um, like it's so So baked into us as people Is If we as children when we're weak and vulnerable We don't have that physical connection to other people We die. Yeah, which is just crazy to me But yeah, that was my idea too bad. We already did it I mean i'll i'll say in light of that part of that is because we don't know How to Take care of ourselves and part of how we take care of ourselves Is by having help, right? And if we don't know that Then we can't care about it. There's something innate about the fact that we need help. We know we need help, but we don't know Why we don't understand how we don't understand what that looks like. We don't understand anything about that So if you just leave a baby out by themselves, they can't know a single thing. I don't think that's it And they don't have any understanding At all and so they can't go and do what they need to do Well, they they can't they can't do anything to model on They have nothing to model on well, they don't like if you don't have any frame of reference Well, they saw people and people were taking care of them just with like those grabber thingies But think about it. You're a baby. Yeah, you have nothing You you and and also you are you don't you don't have that because you don't have object permanence yet Yeah, so they don't exist. Yeah, just because you saw them doesn't mean that they're there They they don't they did exist. You don't you don't have but yeah, but you don't remember that and then now they're gone Yeah, you don't remember that you I thought object permanence was uh a baby Doesn't know that something continues to exist outside of exactly field of view exactly But that doesn't mean but that doesn't mean that they don't remember them either Yeah, but that doesn't remember they don't remember them. They remember a feeling that's about it Maybe and they know their mother. How are we any better? Well, yeah but But the idea is that they also I want to read nick that all like they're not a person yet or they're not They don't exist yet. Oh, all I meant was like they're not self-aware yet. Yeah Right, and and so they they have nothing which means that There's nothing that they can do At all, they can't even care. All they all they know in their flesh is that There's some semblance of needing to be alive because One they're enduring pain and two they Yeah, they're they're enduring some kind of pain and They they at some level understand that they need connection But they don't understand what those things are. They don't know anything about them other than a feeling that they had prior to birth And what they're experiencing now, which is pain. Yeah, and they need comfort And the only comfort that they can receive is from Other people. Yeah, so that's the kind of help that we don't know that we actually need. Yeah. Okay. I see what you mean Well, no, I i'm saying like as a baby, you don't know anything So you don't even know that you need connection But they need comfort you can't possibly know that you need comfort And you can't possibly is that the only thing that they need? Obviously not like they need to be fed. They need to be perfect and you don't and they don't even know things. Yeah Uh Well, I don't know about that. They don't know how to but they know something's wrong. They they they know They know that something happens to them and they feel nourished But they don't know what nourishment is and they don't know what is happening to them, right? but they have those instincts of uh, you know, like you touch your baby's cheek and like They go towards it Well, like the the body the body is programmed to respond. Yeah, right. It's the instinct to right. Mm-hmm but That doesn't mean that they know anything. No, but that's what they know. That's what their body knows. Yeah, so so there's a common western thought of like Our minds are superior to our bodies. Um, and it it's what governs our bodies, but our bodies also have memory Yeah, we were talking about that last week epigenetics. Our bodies have memory itself. We have muscle memory. Um, And memory doesn't have to be something that we can close our eyes and imagine Um muscle memory itself they think at this point is Your muscles get so large that the cell the muscle cell uh can't Sustain everything that's going on. So it it it requires a new Um source of energy. What is it called powerhouse of the cell mitochondria? Thank you It requires a new mitochondria And so then it gets to mitochondria and then it gets bigger bigger bigger because it has enough resources enough energy Yeah to grow and then it gets too big for two yeah, and now it has three and it just keeps going like that and then when that Cell no longer requires all the energy of three mitochondria. The mitochondria don't just go away. Uh, they stay in the cell And the cell skinnies down, right? so now these mitochondria are running at a low level and this is all a huge amount of assumption, but That's memory In a way, right? It's the same way that uh We go to Archaeological digs And we see things that had happened Um, that's memory In a physical sense. And so our bodies hold memory And are portrayed and some of them are portrayed in instincts and so the instincts Don't you can't just say that it's not Knowing something you you can't say that because they they don't have any information then. How do they know? Those instincts Their body does yeah, they know it. Yeah, but that that doesn't mean that they're that doesn't mean that they know it Yeah, it does. No doesn't mean they're aware of it. No, are they aware of themselves? No I I would say that they are aware of themselves Because they would have to be in order to be able to respond based off of what their body is telling those are instincts Okay, but that doesn't that doesn't denote knowledge Just because I know In whatever language that I speak that that is a plate Doesn't mean that I know that it's called a plate If I don't know if no one told me that it is you haven't experienced it Yeah, but instincts you don't need to experience you just know it right your body your body knows But you yourself in your brain In the memory bank that is available to you you don't have at your disposal The language that is that is needed and you and the through line the understanding How to apply it the wisdom also to be able to do anything with it, you know, nothing It doesn't matter it does instincts are instincts. I know you so your body your body is going to know What to do what to do, but that doesn't mean that you know die in the night, right? I would stop breathing But that doesn't stop pumping that doesn't mean that you know You as a person in your personhood in your brain in your personality in everything that goes on in here knows how yourself When you are a baby, that doesn't mean that you know, what needs to happen what's going on? No, absolutely not That's what i'm saying. There's different kinds of knowledge, I guess I know but that's what you're just that's what i'm talking about So you're talking about self-aware knowledge? Yeah, you don't know anything Yeah, your body knows because that's how god created your body but you yourself know nothing as a baby yeah, yeah maybe we just Most of us forget. I mean if you do know something and it goes away That happened to me twice in my life. Yeah, I remember forgetting But that's all I remember I remember the the sudden awareness of like Oh, it's gone something that I was just coherently thinking about is now Inaccessible, right? Like it never happened. That's happened to me twice. I've also heard quite a few people talk about being able to remember back to like Two months old three months old and possibly some people Aren't lying and they can remember earlier than that. Yeah So I think self-awareness Can Be immediate As a baby, it's just we don't We don't hold on to it Right for some some reason or another but memory What you know in that moment Is nothing except what you are experiencing Well, you've already experienced nine months of Your mom right but but you don't know anything except what you've except what you've touched And maybe what well, you don't have eyes what you've sucked on. Um, it's um, you know that you've ingested something kind of Not in the same way your body has taken on Some kind of like you said, you know, you feel good. No. Yeah. Oh now I feel bad and But that that doesn't mean that you really No, all right, what are we even talking about we're talking about knowing something yeah, but why Because do we know what we're talking about? Yeah, I know exactly what we're talking about because because the the The direction that I I I am hearing you speak Is devoid in my mind of knowledge What do you mean because there's information you're talking about information our body has information Our body receives information and information's great, but that's not Something that we know We don't understand it. We don't know what it is. Just like we don't know god if we just have information about him So you're talking about? personal knowledge I'm personal experience. Well, like yes, okay, and that's just okay, but why were we talking about that in the first place? You brought up um Babies needing physical touch to survive and them not knowing that they need that. Yes. Got it and oh, I I brought up the fact that They don't they don't it's impossible for them to know which I think is Bold of us to say in the in the fact that we don't remember our Being we don't remember personally being a baby, but others do supposedly well, how about this? Conceptually, we understand that there is something Lacking but that doesn't mean we know anything About what it is that we're lacking. We know that we feel bad and we know That there's something I think what we're Arguing about semantics you're saying anything. Yeah, I would argue they know something. They just don't know enough Sure, they know they don't feel good They know they need something. Yeah, they just don't know Exactly what it is until they're shown and they experience it hundreds of times. Yeah, cool That kind of ties back to us as uh Spiritual babies, I thought at at this point i'd be Grown and i'd be like Mature in a lot of ways and like over my son, but um As a child of god I'm still a child And I need to be disciplined. I need to be loved on that way. I need to be shown through experience hundreds of times before I even Start to remember well, and that's that's the illusion Of having lots of information, right? Just because we think we have Just because we think we know something doesn't mean that we know it in the bible knowledge is intimate and Personal that's why it says adam knew his wife. Yeah, that's not So you're saying that we're we're flipping with the word no I yeah, I would say I I I try personally not to use The word that I Know something. I probably do a terrible job at it. Yeah, but as often as I Can think about it. I try to avoid that. Yeah, I try to because like with me I A few years ago, I would have defined myself as well. I probably still do. Yeah, uh, I would call myself a conceptualist In that I get a lot of concepts. I understand concepts. Um, I don't know a single thing about them I I can't give you any hard facts. I can't give you any names. I cannot give you any studies I can't give you a book. I can't give you anything other than this is how this thing works, right? that means I don't in some sense, maybe I know it and I Also, I could Describe it to you and I could you know, give you my own, uh personal experience with it, but When it comes to True knowledge, especially in the bible. It's like god attributes a name and god says Yeah, god gives names to things And he knows it he knows them. Um, yeah and You know when it comes to the bible I may have lots of information about the bible but Honestly if I didn't know the name of the bible if I had a lot of information about jesus But I didn't know the name of jesus because god is very specific about names Especially about his own name. Um Do I know? about the god of the bible and i'm not going to say No to that because if I know a lot about the bible and but and I know That I need a savior and I know that Maybe that savior died on the cross and you know, I i'm a sinner and and all this different stuff maybe maybe maybe maybe maybe maybe but God and his name and the invoking of his name is so important and so powerful that I would really Really push back on that and say don't base your everything on that Because if you don't know his name Do you even know him because he cares about his name? He is the name above every name and that's not a That's not like a light thing. He is the name If if that is a title of his that's important that's not nothing that's like like like it's his name it's it's It's so important and if you look at history if you look at shakespeare, what is in a name? I mean he's talking about their last names and who they are and the factions and in different things it's like who cares, you know about our past about where we come from about who lays claim on our existence, but um Who cares it matters? No, no in in shakespeare. Okay, uh who cares because he wants to be with her Um, what is in a name? Uh, You know that still that still Provides a gravity To a name, you know to to think that oh there is so much That comes with the weight of this name that I have to choose to denounce it Because of the power that it has over me and the power that it has over us culturally and blah blah blah blah. Um Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Uh, I mean names are so powerful that we don't realize we're surrounded by god Entirely um by his creation number one by his uh His order of of naming things, um and a minor scratch with the surface, uh, especially in western culture you've got Um the calendaring system Based on god on earth Nuts, uh, then you have um I mean everybody using uh, only one Religious traditions god's name as a curse word Which is strange. None of us say allah. Yeah, or I don't know which is funny. I Side note tangent. Um, i've seen sci-fi's where uh in that universe. There's no like, you know, yaweh and so they're using other gods names as curse words and i'm like Nice But even that the fact that they're aware of that, yeah And they choose to take yaweh out of that universe and they know that they have to change the way that people talk um That's and if we started doing that It would be devastating what do you mean if we started Invoking other god's names be devastating the world would like crash down on us Yeah, also our god probably wouldn't be very happy with that either No, I mean he isn't happy with us when we use it. Otherwise when we use his name I mean, yeah, but like i'm saying the world because we're being offensive intentionally and we're not supposed to do that. We're supposed to be like basically like um We're supposed to be offensive in the ways that he wants us to be. Yeah, not offensive in a way that Turns people away from ever even hearing the good news in the first place Yeah, we're supposed to be we're supposed to be offensive to the desires of the flesh Yeah offensive both to ourselves and others. Yeah And that's why it's so difficult to be a christian. Yeah, because we offend ourselves constantly And we can't turn it off and it's the worst Listening to our second episode. Um, we I had said something about Or we we were talking about How to be a christian, um, we're called to die called to be a martyr That's against the flesh That's that's but it's interesting because to To know to die is not only against the flesh because the flesh does want to live but it is also against The soul spirit because death is unnatural And so god is asking us bodily to die though He knows our soul is going to live but but but even the thought of death at all is is is a is a crazy Thought yeah, but but when it's for our god and we truly Trust and believe and all that stuff You know it it That should make it Easier because we know we're going to be with him in glory. That's why we always talk about we're going to be with him In glory, no, we we we've been told and we believe we don't know we've talked about this At the very been told and we believe we don't know because we haven't witnessed we have not witnessed it We have not experienced it. Oh anybody going into heaven Other than what it says you and I don't know in the bible that experience because we have not experienced it Right, but we do but we've been told by our god. Yeah, um, and Thus we believe We have faith. Yeah, and uh, I mean the bible talks about like how do you have hope in something that you see? Like it's already there the the thing is though Is that when it comes to the knowledge of the word of god? What is the difference of that knowledge? How do we know it better? Because there's one in us that already knows has experienced has experienced Hmm and so and so and that's that's why What like in my book? Yeah, I talk about We cannot know anything 100 ever except for the word of god And especially if we have the holy spirit the holy spirit is ministering to us about his own word About the truth of god, but we don't know his word 100. We don't know his word 100 But we have his spirit Which is a form of knowledge because he he knows it because he knows it. Yes so it's like it's like when you're a baby and you don't know you're not aware of of the experience itself, but you Understand the feeling, you know, something's there think about it like an external hard drive Okay that is being downloaded onto Your Hard drive your heart. Yeah your heart drive the the the holy spirit is the external hard drive downloading ministering to us the spirit drive into your the spirit drive drive and hard drive Yeah, well, I mean because it's like it's there the information is available and it is true we know that it is true because We should know We should believe our god we should believe his book his word and the reason that we believe it is because We because he cared for us. We see him. We we love him because he loved us because he loved us. Yeah, and so oftentimes because Those whom he loved loved us. Yeah, and so we saw god's love through them. Yeah well, and I wasn't that nuts like you think about the the love of the brothers and sisters that um that brought you to life, uh to to the knowledge of life, um and their love was initiated by Another's love by another's love by another's love all the way up to jesus christ. And in that way We're spiritual family of jesus himself. Who was the first straight from romans 8 dang I've never understood it that way before but that's crazy. That's crazy. Yeah. Yeah All right. Well, that's an epiphany moment for me. Um, do we want to Pack it up. Sure. Or do you want to uh, say something else steven? You got words of wisdom. Nope. Wow wise. Um Uh, do either of you want to pray out, uh, yeah, and then our do not do outro and then pray okay You want to do outro? Yeah, okay um well This has been the perfumed dk podcast. Yeah episode 13. I feel like it's getting better every single time um, I Would have to agree with you. Okay. I thought you were gonna say disagree. Um, I was worried for a second there I'm glad you thought about it and your heart leaned towards agreeing But then in my flesh I was like contrarian here we come um, I could see it in your eyes Uh, no, but no it I mean We learn more and more it seems um, and even in our speculation we One learn about ourselves, but we also learn. Um About how god is kind of Speaking with us in a way almost like the things that minister to our hearts The truth is there if we want to see it, but oftentimes we don't care enough to do the work to see it yeah, oftentimes we're just um Too caught up in the moment too caught up in the world uh in the noise, um in the entertainment of the world, uh in the stress and the anxiety of the world that we just Don't take the time. Yeah to to sit down and really think about the truth. That's Clearly obvious because we're not studied. No, we're not professors here. We're not We've read the bible I've read the bible in and once I went to A christian high school. I don't have any seminary experience. Uh, do you do you know? Okay, obviously there's Obvious truth. Yeah We just need to take the time to see it. Yeah, don't the holy spirit guide us to it. Yeah With help of the bible. Yeah So You know, uh, the hope is that this is edifying entertaining as well. Um, but that's Uh, you know anything that doesn't need to be said isn't said I mean everything that does need to be said is overshadowing the things that seem completely And ultimately that the spirit ministers to our listeners as they're listening so that they can glean What is? Good good. Yeah And what will minister to their hearts? And you know, we are imperfect We kind of suck all the time Gold stamps suck it dude over here Professionals if you will yeah, um grade a suck. Yeah Triple-a rated I was just inspected last week Every moment of every day. Yeah, and great inspector said you suck But you know, we serve a great God who makes us righteous which is Convicting And Integrating yeah, and so, you know in the effort of making this an honest raw Look at not only the Word of God, but also The lives of the hosts. Yeah ourselves ourselves the world. Yeah You know, we hope that it's edifying and and that is absolutely entertaining because I think we're pretty funny But that's kind of arrogant. But yeah, I said we so it's you know I'm the best at being humble. Okay, let's just Wow put it out there We'll pray for our brother just a morning myself Because you know, I am the wisest person out there, okay Wow, just just gotta remember the the quotes that I've said Yeah on the show and just like keeping my back pocket because you know, it's better than scripture sometimes Oh, wow, most of the time people would say I Think this is a coping mechanism the flesh Digging haven't found bottom yet But if you have thoughts comments questions concerns complaints Constructive criticisms or just complaints or just complaints, you know I've always said if keep it to yourself better if you yell and scream then if you say nothing at all, that's right Yeah, still want to hear from you granted. I've I have heard it said if you don't have a solution then Speaking if you don't have a solution act like Stephen say nothing say nothing Saying speak quietly and hold a big stick No, but like Because you can complain all day long and sign or change anything But if you provide a solution at least you know, you're being intentional about your complaints. You'll now Be part of the solution But you'll have credit and we'll write down your name on the solution when we sign that contract with you and say hey We're doing this because of This person. I mean, we'll probably we will actually not put their name on what? That doesn't make any sense. Why don't we change a million things? We are not gonna reference that person every single time. No, but like we'll probably shot. We'll talk to them We'll be like, hey, are you okay if we shout you out? Yeah. No, this is great advice. Thanks, man. That's right. Yes. Okay But yeah This has been great episode, it's probably gonna be called sevenfold Even last episode would have been called sevenfold, but we tried not to talk about the sevenfold at all Mm-hmm. You try to talk about it. I tried everything in my power to not talk about it. Yes But Yeah, it's been episode 13. Mm-hmm, and we're gonna press pray ourselves out before that. Do we have news or no we Do not have news. Oh cool. Cool. Cool. Cool. Um, yeah, no worries Oh website is still in progress. Yeah, it's probably gonna be in progress for a while. Okay There is a janky one up. Sure. Maybe that one was created almost solely by AI Very little guidance from us as a team and Count yourself lucky if you go to perfume decay right now perfume decay calm You asked me how to spell it. I say yes, whatever way you want to sure Um count yourself lucky if you go to perfume decay calm and you see that As you hear this Because it might not be up forever. In fact, it probably will not be. Oh, man. That's quite a gem Yeah, it'd be funny if we could put it like on our patreon And otherwise like lock it so that nobody can find it crazy but that would be nuts the amount of like that would be technical like it'd be like Undertaking a bunch of encryption, wouldn't it? No Maybe I mean sure. I mean we could just save the html file and give it to him. There you go We can embed it into the patreon itself. There we go. That that works. Hmm anyways I will pray us out. Sounds good to me. We'll be done Lord, I thank you for this time that you've given to us to gather Uh in your name Um to do uh to think and to act um accordingly to what we pray Is what you desire? Um that our words are Reflective of what you have done in our lives not in what we think that we have achieved in ourselves um and lord, I pray that Uh, this podcast is a reflection of that that we are uh Revealing confessing even where we fall short um In in in the honesty that we seek to achieve, um and and also pointing to where You have corrected us where you have revealed your truth And your hope and your peace and your love and your joy um in light of that and I pray that this episode, uh was edifying to our listeners that your spirit ministers to them um As it has ministered to us during this, uh the making of this episode, um, and uh, we pray that you bring to us those that Uh need to hear it um that need to experience something Like this whoever that audience is we don't entirely know quite yet uh right now it's us and a few of our friends, um but lord, you know and You will bring to us who uh Who Who we need to be ministering to um, and we pray that we are thankful for that when that time comes Uh, though it is not now. Um, we don't need now we need right we need to be living in the moment Um and the blessings that it has and in the future Um, just be thankful for What we are given especially that day if we even make it that far who knows? how far we'll make it um, but uh, thank you for this experience lord and We pray that our listeners are uh Thankful as well for this podcast that you have given to us to enact Um in obedience Uh, and I pray this all in your name. Amen. Amen. Cool. Cool. Peace out. Cool scale. See you next time